It’s called capitalism. They are free to charge for what they want and you are free to find another contractor! And of course they charge for their employees PPE etc. It’s just that most of them don’t itemise it. After all they are in the business of making money.

Of course they are going to charge extra for taking on the role of PC. There is more work involved and increased liability should things go chests up. Would you take on increased duty and liability in your job for a minimal amount ? Doubt it. As for you not being happy with the service and the PC not fulfilling their duties and producing a CPP after works have commenced then I suggest you look carefully at your responsibilites and duties as Client.

Alistair, not the responses you hoped to get I should imagine. I for one would be interested excatly what are these 'extra charges'. The role of the PC is clearly defined in the CDM Regs, as such I cannot see how a PC can make charges for discharging their statutory duties. For example, if a PC charged for providing a CPP as far as I'm concerned this cost should be absorbed within the project costs.

Seems you've some work to do to get your own (CDM Client) house in order then - that's a failure of statutory duty by the Client!

'management fee' all of our incumbent 'approved and appraised' PC partners are charging contract = 10% Simply shows how naïve the 'clients' are because I generally find the PC doesn't fulfil the role adequately come-what-may

It would help if you could indicate the size of project you're talking about, being PC on a large project will bring additional considerable costs, constructing and maintaining suitable offices and welfare establishments, constructing and maintaining site security reviewing method statements COSHH assesments lift plans etc, procuring competent contractors, inducting all people on site organising coordination meetings amongst contactors, ensuring first aid cover, public relations etc. Why would you expect a contractor to provide these services for free?

Surely at tender stage, each contractor will have supplied you with their quote for the works as PC. All contractors have to meet their statutory duties under CDM and, surprise it costs money. You mention about producing CPP after the start date and these were poor! Client and the PD/CDM(C) should not have let them commence until the plan had been approved. I wonder if you query the charges presented by the CDM(C) / PD?

Afternoon Alistair, As a principal contractor I am very surprised by your view that the PC role should be carried out for free. You appear to be suggesting that being a PC is exactly the same as being a contractor who is employed to carry out a specific item of work? Just to explore your viewpoint could you elaborate *in your direct experience*: What facilities does a PC provide above and beyond those of a contractor? How much do you believe these facilities cost? Is it not reasonable to pay an admin charge for someone taking ownership of sorting these facilities in order to allow your (the clients) work to be undertaken? What responsibilities does a PC take on above and beyond those of a contractor? How much do you believe the training and physical provisions cost to account for the entire site above and beyond those of a contractor? What site wide management tasks does a PC do above and beyond those of a contractor? How long do you believe these tasks take? How many repetitions of each task do you think are undertaken? How many people do you believe it requires to carry out these tasks? What do you think such people get paid in order to be on-site in order to carry out these management tasks and manage the site facilities? If your answers are indicating that the cost to any of the above questions is above zero then may I suggest that this is why a contractor would not take on PC responsibilities without suitable remuneration; and that is without even considering the legal repercussions of the PC role. Cheers Ant

Nothing in life is for free and I never said that. When I said the cost should be subsumed in the overall cost I was indicating that the overall cost in a PC's bid for the job should be THE cost and they should not try and earn extra for meeting their statutory requirements. It is as if h & s is an add-on when it should be considered as an integral part of the job. My gripe is that, in the incident I was referring to, the PC added an extra charge without actually delivering what they charged us for so maybe my viewpoint is influenced by this individual incident. The construction industry still has a long way to go and the next time I hear "well, h & s, it is only common sense" I will go into meltdown. Common sense is like deodorant - the people who need it the most don't use it.

Hmm..... For some projects, when acting as PC, I have to provide; Inductions Welfare Cabins Site Fencing Operate a Permit System Security etc. If you want the costs absorbed then you will get a quote from me that will have a very large amount of wiggle room in it for the above. If my competitor quoting now makes the PC role a separate line item, your procurement people will want to know why I am charging an additional X% for the same job. I think you need to go back to procurement as originally stated and get the tenders sorted out properly. At the quotation stage are you asking for them to be the PC? If you are, why not ask for a price to cover this? Are you adding the PC role to the contractor duties after the job as been awarded? All of three of these questions above will make a difference to quotes, how the job runs, costs, and most importantly the legal aspects of CDM (to the PC AND Client).

The PC is appointed early enough and we want a price for the work to be carried out to meet the h & s legal requirements. We do not want contractors trying to rob us by adding extra costs on just because they think they can use CDM as a reason. We have had the same from scaffold companies. For example, we asked for a scaffold to be erected on one of our private properties for roofing work. They do it but do not adequately protect the area above the entrance to the front door, piece of roofing material falls and narrowly misses the resident (Senior member of our teaching staff). Response from scaffolders = "oh if you wanted it double boarded with poly sheet between boards and with brick guards without gaps, etc that is regarded as an extra h & s measure and would have cost you an extra £500! Okay, yes, there is a competence issue there and our manager appointing them maybe should have spelt the requirements out in more detail, but it is indicative of the industry. We even had an asbestos survey company a few years ago try to add some extra costs for compliance with the Work at Height Regs - we **$$** them right off.

Alistair, Got to say I'm a bit lost with regards to exactly where the root of this issue lies tbh. Have you tendered a PC role, appointed a PC at the outset and paid the fee but have subsequently been let down by the PC's performance? Or, have you appointed a "contractor" then changed their appointment to act as a PC (which is how most responders have taken your opening posts)? If the former then I understand why you are aggrieved and agree they should not be charging you for compliance with CDM- they should be doing their job. If the latter then the company were probably never in a position to give you what you wanted and should not have been put in the position of fulfilling the role of PC- which equals a client failure. Sorry if you believe you have clarified this somewhere in the post but I'm getting mixed messages from the replies. Cheers Ant

Contractors eh!....Who'd have em ;-)

Aha - something like that but not quite. Our "procurement" asked for a complete basket of fruit but we only got a basket with 90% fruit in it - then the fruit shop assistant said - if you want grapes as well, they are an extra £5.

mmm - I sort of get the point and I agree that our procurement could have been more helpful. But I would still say that any reputable fruit retailer would know that a fruit basket would not be complete unless in contained grapes (and tomatoes of course).