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KKemp  
#1 Posted : 16 October 2012 15:56:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
KKemp

Hello, We have three engineers working in the Company who do not have any formal qualifications, they have just learnt on the job. Tasks they are carrying out are:- Changing rotary valves repairs and fault finds breakdowns on equipment handy work etc Is this acceptable that they have been trained on the job or do they need to be qualified? Thanks for your advice and feedback, Katie
chris.packham  
#2 Posted : 16 October 2012 16:18:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

If they have been trained on the job and are performing their duties satisfactorily, why should you need to go down the route of making them obtain some form of paper qualification? Would this improve the standard of work that they are achieving at the moment? What would this bring to the organisation to reimburse them for the cost of obtaining 'qualifications' for these workers.
Jake  
#3 Posted : 16 October 2012 16:27:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

Hi Kkemp, The legal requirement is for persons to be competent, attaining a formal qualification in its self does not make a person competent. You need to assess if the engineers are competent, and if they are, then you would not need to seek any further training / qualification. Subjectively speaking, as Chris states, if the guys are doing a good job, without issue, and you can demonstrate in-house training etc. then a "qualification" would not be neccissary (but this is different from if it would be benificial for moral / progression etc.).
phow  
#4 Posted : 16 October 2012 16:40:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
phow

Katie. You (or your company) must access the level of competance required. e.g. What is your equipment "processing"? -- if say just grains /feedstuffs, then not very high. If chenicals or flammables or toxics, then you will need a higher level of defined competance as the "cost" of getting it wrong [Loss of Containment] is high, leading to PI claims or HSE notices. Is the breakdown & fault finding involving work on 240v electrics. If yes then you will need qualified electricians. I'm sure your tradesmen or mechanics would love to be sent on course leading to recognised qualifications, but will the Co pay? Best wishes. Peter
paul.skyrme  
#5 Posted : 16 October 2012 19:04:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Katie, 1st, please don't insult people, if these operatives have no qualifications, they are NOT Engineers. If they hurt themselves, or kill someone, how would you prove their engineering competence against an expert witness in the field? Take electrical work, would they be able to stand up for themselves in the dock against a competent Chartered Electrical Engineer who is trained as an expert prosecution witness? Take stored energy systems, are they competent to identify these and safely dissipate the energy?
Ron Hunter  
#6 Posted : 16 October 2012 23:15:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Fitters. Maintenance Technicians, etc. Not Engineers. I'm with Paul.
bob youel  
#7 Posted : 17 October 2012 07:25:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

You need to fully explain just what you mean as the term can become blurred and note that we are an academic society above all else [academic idiots in many many cases but you will not beat the system] so some of the points already made are very good If there is real doubt and worry you may need the support of a 'proper' engineer to support you - I would recommend a x-sea going engineer as all that I have worked with were good both at the academic and the hands on side plus good with people Note: Many of the best/finest engineers the world has ever seen were not academically qualified! And many degree engineers that I have personal experience of working with are useless at putting things to work even in some cases after working for many years after their degrees
Rob M  
#8 Posted : 17 October 2012 08:38:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Rob M

I use My d32 & d33 qualifications to develope a means of demonstrating competency which i review with the staff annualy or when the activity may stray from the field of demonstrated competency. If your interested a could send you some i have on file so you can see how its done
Pete Mears  
#9 Posted : 17 October 2012 13:59:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Pete Mears

I have to agree with most of the posts - particularly Ron's (#6). I despair at how the term engineer has been devalued over the years; almost anyone can claim to be an engineer of this, or that discipline these days. I've seen a van stating 'optical regeneration engineer' who was in fact a window cleaner, (no disrespect to window cleaners!) and there are a plethora of shops on the high street carrying out computer repairs claiming to employee 'engineers.' Also, have you noticed how often the term 'qualified electrician' is used; surely, if they are an electrician, they are qualified anyway. If they are not, then they are not an electrician! To me, the best proof when someone purports to be an engineer, is to ask them for their Engineering Council registration number, as all 'proper' engineers (and Engineering Technicians) will have registered through an appropriate affiliated Institution that requires not only formal qualifications, but proof of hands-on experience and a current CPD path. Rant over!
paul.skyrme  
#10 Posted : 17 October 2012 20:14:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Pete in #9, I can though would prefer not to post my EngC IEng registration number! ;) The issue with qualified electricians, is that again anyone can call themselves an electrician! I suspect I may be one of the few with a real old fashioned apprenticeship, I now actually can officially claim 2 trades, independently verified, apart from my other qualifications, in the way of an old fashioned BTEC HNC, a BSc (Hons) in Engineering & an MEng as well as my EngC registration, excluding any H&S. I have had to work long and hard to get here, and anyone can now come along and call themselves an Engineer or electrician and get away with it. I suspect H&S consultants would be up in arms if all those who had ever done an hours H&S training called themselves H&S consultants and set up in business in competition? After all, in reality, H&S professionals basically don't endanger anyone with the work they do, in general, there will be exceptions, their actions are to protect people, their in actions would therefore not protect people. Electricians & engineers, fitters, maintenance technicians etc. can & actually do actually endanger people by their actions, but many seem not to care both in H&S & on the engineering side.
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