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#1 Posted : 12 December 2006 08:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mart Morning all, Just a quick one. Is it the company which holds the above registration or must it be each individual fitter. Cheers, Mart
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#2 Posted : 12 December 2006 08:54:00(UTC)
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Posted By Stewart Fullarton As far as i know Mart, its the individual that must keep up their certification. As if it were the company then anyone could play with gas. Stew
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#3 Posted : 12 December 2006 09:01:00(UTC)
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Posted By Michael Battman I think you will find that in most cases it is a bit of both. The individual has his/her own card, but it has something to the effect of 'whilst working for Company X' on it. This stops them doing foreigners and private work, because the certification needed to sign a job off is on Company X's headed paper.
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#4 Posted : 12 December 2006 10:25:00(UTC)
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Posted By Alexander Falconer I am somewhat flabberghasted at the responses listed here! In reality it is the company who holds the CORGI registration, not the fitters, Fitters will be registered through the company, receive their card which is surrendered upon leaving the company. These cards expire after 12months and are subsequently refreshed as long as the fitter remains employed. Gas Fitters also hold ACS registration(s) which are refreshed every 5 years. In addition, it is illegal for Gas Fitters to conduct private work, etc, etc Reason, as the company holds the registration, not the individual, it can be construed that private work is installed by unlicensed fitter (even though he is licensed through his employer during working hours/requirements of employment contract). One of the key reasons for licensing companies is to keep track of the individual "cowboys" Lets say, a gas fitter registered through a CORGI company, breaches gas safety rules, etc, is dismissed as a result (after investigation, etc), the company can cancel the individuals registration, quoting the reasons why to CORGI, this way the individual cannot work on his own, and if he gets alternative employment (not telling his new employer the reasons why he was dismissed), the employer has to re register the individual through CORGI (under the new company CORGI registration). Any concerns will be identified then by CORGI and relayed to the employer reasons for refusal, etc, etc Bit better for tracking the cowboys that we dont need Then again, what is to stop the cowboy registering himself under a company name (ie self-employed/one-man band)? CORGI have certain criteria to be stipulated before registration too, so any previous misdemeanours can come to light at this stage also And yes, I work for a gas central heating installation, maintenance and servicing company who is registered via CORGI.
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#5 Posted : 12 December 2006 11:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By halesowen Baggie Alexander, Can you tell me where it says it is illegal for a gas fitter to conduct private work. I am not doubting you in any way, I just know in the past people that have their fires installed by a 'corgi' gas fitter doing a foreigner. Would be useful to quote the relevant legislation in the future. Thanks in advance.
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#6 Posted : 12 December 2006 13:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By Alexander Falconer Halesowen Baggie I am unable to quote any form of legislation, however if you read page 3 of the PHAM news Nov/Dec edition there is an article "CORGI Installers warned about seeking extra work" To quote "CORGI has issued a warning aimed at operatives who are employed by a CORGI registered business who may take on work themselves for monetary gain outside of their employers business" "The Gas Safety watchdog has made it clear that anyone carrying out such work is acting illegally and will be prosecuted if caught" "The warning comes after CORGI received a number of complaints from the public. Despite being qualified to work on gas, operatives are only CORGI registered under their employer and as soon as they undertake work outside the employers business they are an illegal worker in the eyes of the law" "CORGI registration is like a driving licence says Mike Thopson, CORGI's chief executive. It is proof that the installer is qualified and legal, but even this is open to abuse by unscrupolous cowboys" "If any CORGI Installer is found to be breaking the rules or regulations, action will be taken which could lead to removal from the CORGI register and being reported for prosecution to the HSE" Sacremongering or not?
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#7 Posted : 12 December 2006 14:02:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mart Thanks for all responses. Mart
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#8 Posted : 12 December 2006 15:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By William If a gas engineer was self employed, corgi registered and had his own liability insurance it would be ok, the engineer or his company must be registered with corgi under the Gas Safety (installation and use)regs 1998 sections 3+4 i think?
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#9 Posted : 13 December 2006 10:34:00(UTC)
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Posted By lewes The company has to be CORGI registered and so do each individual employees who undertake gas works. All employees must under take suitable ACS training in the gas elements there are looking to work in. The main one is classed as the core element CCN1 and enables them to install pipework and also looks at pipe sizing, ventilation etc. The CCN1 must be completed before other elements are undertaken. To install any gas appliance in the UK you have to be competent. If you do it for any sort of reward (even a cup of tea) then you must be CORGI registered. I know of an instance where someone installed a gas appliance, had the recognised training, skills and experience but was not CORGI registered. They did not get fined as they met the criteria or thats the tale I was told anyway.
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#10 Posted : 13 December 2006 13:25:00(UTC)
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Posted By halesowen Baggie I have had a look at the Gas Safety (installation and use)Regs and I cant see any reference to it being illegal for a corgi fitter not to do 'other installations'. It is clearly illegal as the watchdog and professionals like Alexander state, but can anybody get the legislation. This has now turned into an interesting debate at work! Thanks
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#11 Posted : 13 December 2006 13:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By AHS Interesting but I think CORGI would have a hard time convincing the HSE that someone who had a relevant in date CORGI registered ID card were not competent. Maybe membership fees are clouding the issue of what actually constitutes an offence under Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998.
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#12 Posted : 13 December 2006 13:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By Alexander Falconer Have had a little look at the CORGI essential gas safety book, to see if we can shed light on matters - certainly proving to be an iteresting debate The Gas Safety (Installation & Use) Regulations be came law on 30th March 1991 for all businesses undertaking gas work on fittings supplied by natural gas to be registered with a body approved by the HSE. CORGI was approved by this purpose, and given the responsibility of maintaining a register of competent installers CORGI works to a tight remit laid down by the HSE's criteria, which stipulates how the registration of gas installing businesses should be operated. The criteria must be met in full and require CORGI to monitor and inspect installing businesses regularly, run a public enquiry and complaints service, and the need to use registered operatives. Starting to make sense now! Another issue that regularly crops up, when qualified operatives move from one company to another, they have to be re-registered under their new employers registration, and this can take as much as 2 - 3weeks before the new operatives corgi card comes through, in the meantime during this period any work being carried out is "un-registered" and liable to fall foul of the law (despite the operative being classed as more than competent)
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#13 Posted : 13 December 2006 15:56:00(UTC)
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Posted By halesowen Baggie Below is taken from the acop l56 which goes with the regs. Paragraph 45 is interesting. Guidance 43. All gas installation businesses, including self-employed gas installers, are (subject to the limited exceptions in regulation 3(4)) required to be in membership of a 'class of persons' approved by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE), whether they carry out such work as their main or part activity. Gas fitters who are employed by a member of an approved 'class of persons', but who do separate work on their own behalf, need to be in membership of such class of persons, eg CORGI-registered, in their own right. 44. At the time of publication of this ACOP/guidance, the only body with such approval is the Council for Registered Gas Installers - CORGI (although other organisations may apply to HSE for consideration to act as a registration body if they so wish). CORGI's address is 1 Elmwood, Chineham Business Park, Crockford Lane, Basingstoke, Hants RG24 8WG (tel: 01256 372200). 45. Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must be competent to do so, whether or not they are required to be a member of an approved class of persons. Therefore, do-it-yourself installers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have the required competence. The level and range of competence should match the full extent of work done, but needs only to be sufficient for and relevant to that work. Employers of gas fitting operatives are also required under regulation 3(2) to ensure that their employees have the required competence for the work undertaken; in addition to ensuring they are properly experienced and trained (see paragraph 47), this involves ongoing monitoring of performance standards, as necessary. 46. The duty to ensure gas installers are competent extends to other employers and self-employed persons with control over the work concerned, eg certain contractors, and those requiring work to be done in a workplace under their control. Where there is more than one dutyholder in a particular situation, close liaison is essential to ensure requirements are met, eg through proper check procedures. Information on the scope of work a CORGI-registered gas installer is competent to perform may be obtained from the installer certificate of competence (issued under the certification scheme referred to in paragraph 47) or where, under transitional registration arrangements, no certificate has yet been issued, from CORGI - see also regulation 4 concerning duty to check for membership of an HSE approved class of persons. 47. Competence depends on a combination of training and experience. The HSC ACOP Standards of training in safe gas installation provides guidance both on the scope of training and the need for proper assessment/re-assessment of gas fitting operatives (see Appendix 4). Although failure to observe any provision of the Code is not in itself an offence, that failure may be taken by a Court in criminal proceedings as proof that a person has contravened a particular regulation. The ACOP extends to gas installation work at premises excluded from these Regulations but subject to the HSW Act sections 2 and 3 - see paragraph 42 and Appendix 3. The nationally accredited certification scheme introduced in January 1998 requires individual gas fitting operatives to have their competence assessed at five-yearly intervals by a certification body accredited by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service (UKAS). 48. Regulation 3 extends to work on portable or mobile space heaters, eg LPG cabinet heaters (where done at premises subject to the Regulations), see paragraph 11. As gas storage vessels are not 'gas fittings' within the meaning of these Regulations, the changing of cylinders, filling of storage tanks or fixing in position of such tanks does not require membership of an HSE approved class of persons, eg CORGI registration. However, people involved in these activities, or any of those covered by the exceptions in regulation 3(4)(a)-(b) (concerning certain 'like for like' hose/regulator replacement activities, such as where used/worn items are replaced) need to have the required competence and ensure that they follow instructions, eg given by the gas supplier/appliance manufacturer, as appropriate. Where other work is involved, eg installing or replacing an LPG tank requiring work on service pipework or other gas fitting(s), it should be carried out only by someone who is in membership of an HSE approved class of persons, eg a CORGI-registered installer, with the required competence (see also regulation 2(6)(c) regarding exceptions for certain work on gas appliance control devices primarily intended for use by the consumer). 49. Regulation 3(8) requires manufacturers of caravans, holiday homes or inland waterway boats to be used in situations in which the Regulations will apply to ensure employees who install gas fittings (or who do subsequent maintenance or repair work) are competent, and to take reasonable steps to secure safety once their products are taken/retaken into use. Manufacturers should take reasonable steps, eg by arrangements with their supply outlets and dealers, to establish, as best they can, the intended use of their products and whether the requirements in regulation 3(8) will therefore apply. Whatever is the case, manufacturers also need to bear in mind other, more general, duties under health and safety and consumer protection legislation, and, in their own interests, it is recommended that they use the same standards of gas installation in all their products, and have quality control procedures to ensure that this is the case. In addition to the installation of gas fittings themselves, other relevant factors, eg location and size of flue and ventilation openings, need to be taken into account.
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#14 Posted : 13 December 2006 20:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dan dan the fitter, and teh company which is subject to audit constraints
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#15 Posted : 13 December 2006 21:13:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dan dan We do not employ fitters unless they are registered with corgie and hold the necessary accreditation. We also do the back ground checks. We do also put our guys through ACS and we do work for contractors working for what was the biggest Network in the country . The guys do do private work, but it is their individual registration that is at risk if it does go pear shaped. If they are working for us they are stringently audited which includes quality checks on site, safety audits and inspections by us, the client, lloyds on the clients 18001 inspections, Lloyds on our 18001 survey visits, the gas board audits and quality checks and sample post works surveys. but finally the individual is registered and so is the company
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