Posted By Marcus Williams Which is better??? 1:Someone who has no experience in Health & Safety but has passed a NEBOSH exam OR 2:Someone with experience but has not passed an exam. Surely experience accounts for something!!!! Someone could be academically minded and pass the exam but, when it comes to actually doing the job practically it could be a different matter. Not everyone is academically minded but,if given the opportunity would be more than capable of doing the job asked of them but these people are never given the chance. Employers will always look for the qualifications first whether that person is competent at doing the job or not. I could apply for a job and have plenty of experience but, I can guarantee that the person that would get the job would be the one with the qualification not the experience. I am not knocking people who have spent time and money passing their exams and are more than capable of doing the job. I am just interested in what people think.

Posted By RyanKershaw Marcus, I'm currently putting the final touches to my NTU Diploma which I have self funded after completing my NEBOSH. I'm in the process of looking for a position and am finding that experience is the key in this line of work. It seems that all the qualifications in the world arnt much good with out the experience of putting the knowledge into practise. Just my opinion ! Ryan Kershaw

Posted By Richard Spencer Isn’t this true in any occupation where a basic skill is required? The market and society will ultimately drive the requirement for skilled and experienced safety people. I think Stuart put it very succinctly. If an electrician were to front up for a job as an electrician the first thing they would ask is, where are your trade papers and license. Of course the number of electric shocks reported would indicate the level of competency to perform the job. These days even the humble process worker is required to undergo training but in the main does a process line job were he is not advising on life threatening hazards and corrective action or in the example, how to wire up a switchboard in accordance with the appropriate standards. It depends on where you see yourself and the occupation of health and safety, with the process worker or electrician? In future as more and more people decide on higher education you are going to be more and more disadvantaged because your opinions will not accord with potential employers at least for the better paid jobs. Richard

Posted By Peter Lee Marcus, sounds as though you would be better with another OSH qualification as the NVQ requires you to work in Health and Safety. There are many accredited courses, just click on membership information to the left of this page. The hardest job to get in Health and Safety is your first, keep going mate.

Posted By navigator Very true

Posted By Kelvin George Marcus I am still studying for Nebosh Dip1 and as yet have no qualifications or any real experience in H&S. All my past experience came in the form of being the most senior personnel about and therefore responsible. I have yet to start the merry go round of looking for a job and will wait until I can prove to prospective employers that I have the Dip1. I obviously hope that the jobs on offer a put their by "non competent" or would that be incompetent personnel with respect to H&S. Why you ask. The answer is simply that they want to be able to say that they have done their job by employing a competent person to deal with H&S - then they can forget all about it - and by employing someone with a bit of paper then most other people would agree with them that they had indeed employed a competent person. I'm not saying that just because some one has the correct bit of paper they are competent because they may just be good academically, but by having that bit of paper NEBOSH is saying by default that the person holding is competent to a certain degree and that level of competency is quantifiable. Experience does matter, however it is very difficult for it to be quantified. As the saying goes "there is no fool like an old fool" Why is that? because he/she has had years of practice. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what we think, because we are not in the position to change it, and when we do get to the postion where we could change it we probably wouldn't. Why? because the vast majority of us accept the fact that to get the job we want we also have to get the bit of paper they want. You may think I'm spouting a load of ******** which is your perogative, or that I'm trying to put down on people who do not have academic qualifications in which case you'd be wrong. However I do believe that management of today do want the qualifications but they also want the experience. In actual fact I belive that most of them would want Allan St John Holt for every H&S post going if they could from lowest advisor to the most senior of H&S Management posts - fortunately for me at least he ain't available for all off 'em - but the simple fact is they have to use the available personnel. If the majority of them have Quals and some experience then they are the ones who will get the jobs. Well that's the end of my humble ramblings. Marcus why not go and get the quals, if you already work as a H&S advisor you must have quite a lot of knowledge and I'm sure you would find the studying no problem. Cheers Kelvin

Posted By Ron Young Size isn't everything...

Posted By chris oliver There is enough well priced distance learning courses out there for you to progress, its not easy but then what is. Go for it before you know where you are you will have completed enough to at least get you a start.

Posted By Rachel Moschke After completing the dip 1, my employer was still not happy and insisted that I gained ‘MIOSH’, I have been working in safety for 15 years in many industries, so would say qualifications based on experience is the answer, as such I am undertaking the NVQ4 route to avoid those exam nightmares, I am finding the NVQ route really suits me as I am doing it through e-learning. I am doing this through shields safety, visit there website www.sheilds.org they have loads of information on the NVQs. Good luck Rachel

Posted By Keith Morison No worries Marcus. When I emailed you the info, I hadn't realised that you were already studying the Nebosh Certificate. I recommend you purchase the Examiners Reports at £6 each. Well worth it. regards, Keith

Posted By PETER GANNAWAY I hear the experience over qualifications quite a lot, and it usually comes from those who for whatever reason haven't tried or tried and failed to gain qualifications. My experience is that by following an academic route you learn to think wider and deeper about a problem. CPD builds on knowledge, and certainly this knowledge needs a practical outlet. Many people I have met who claim say 10 years experience, have in reality 1 years experience which is now 9 years old.

Posted By Richard Spencer Merv I agree that to have a qualification is a plus, and I further agree that it is how you come over at the interview and the experiential evidence that you can produce that will undoubtedly impress. I also agree that competency is the eventual outcome; however qualifications must, and do form a part of this competency, ask some of your clients. Your ‘30 years’ in safety and having never taken an examination in the subject is quite remarkable. Most employers need to train their Safety Officers no matter how close to the shop floor they were or are as the incumbent Safety Officer. Without ongoing education given to said Safety Officers, they take a great risk in demonstrating compliance to the General Duty of Care in common law and General Duty in statute law. I put it to you, how would you demonstrate competency to a new employer, a HSE inspector, or court in a civil litigation action against you or your employer/client or in a statutory prosecution by the Health and Safety Executive? Given the fact that competency is assessed as part experience and part education in the subject matter? The fact that you have been allowed to progress to the position in IOSH that you now hold is the reason why IOSH has made the changes to membership requirements and the need for ongoing professional development, which cannot be achieved without a base level of study, academic or otherwise plus experiential evidence of activity. If I was called to investigate an incident either as a government inspector in the case of the statutory body or as an expert witness in any other circumstance, I would particularly take note of the qualifications of the safety officer and safety consultant involved in the administration of the OHS system where the hypothetical incident occurred, this would escalate depending on the event eg death of debilitating injury of one or many employees or members of the general public. Clearly you would always be protected by the Act if an employee of the organisation and I think you already know this as the employer is always Vicariously Liable. As a self employed person, acting in a professional capacity, I would say you may be viewed as being Vicariously Liable for your actions. That is why many professional people spend lots of money on professional indemnity insurance! Having no delegation in your Job Description as a supervisor or manager you could theoretically continue to remain in professed ignorance of standards of education most of us as professionals have chosen to acquire through necessity. However, a word of warning – As a consultant you are liable for your actions and if you consulted in an organisation where injury or hurt occurred and a ‘qualified’ consultant, that is one having academic qualification plus experience, was engaged, the activities and advice you gave would be scrutinised by the organisation's legal adviser as well as being subpoenaed by the Plaintiff’s solicitor and their expert witness. Whilst you would not be the prime target you could potentially find yourself enjoined in a common law action. Notwithstanding, the employers culpability in the matter to wit, failed to meet the duty to legislative compliance. The outcome would be a very dissatisfied client and do little for future consulting opportunities. The fact that you hold no qualification in the subject matter whatsoever as an independent consultant and still have been able to make a good living to date is noteworthy but, in this day and age you should be cognisant of the changed environment. This sort of admission does nothing for the standing of the profession. I’m unsure what political position IOSH will take in your case with the new changes but I hope they apply the same CPD standard across the board showing favour to no one and treating everyone with the same equality. I reiterate qualifications are a necessary part of competency. Richard MIOSH

Posted By Richard Spencer Keith I have responded by email. Richard

Posted By Dave Wilson Think some of you are missing the point here! 30 years ago HASAW didnt exist and neither did the Management Regs requiring competent advice etc Where were IOSH and BSC and IIRSM at that time!! Its no good looking back and decrying some one who has obviously vast experience and no qualifications we are where we are! We are all learning on a daily basis. Just because you have loads of qualifications and PHd's MSc etc does not confer competence look at the ladies who have been released from prison lately!!!! In todays working environment Safety Qualifications and the level at which those are based is necessary and so is experience dependant on the Risk level of the industry in which you work. Anyone can call themselves a consultant, its the people who employ them who are ignorant of what that 'consultant' can or cannot undertake, MIOSH and RSP and even FIOSH are the highest accolade within the safety Industry as you have to maintain CPD etc to keep them and even have a peer review. These things are not given out lightly. My advice is get the qualification which will get you those letters after your name and your individual circumstance dictate on what route you will need to take, not which is the better 'academic' qualification. Is a degree from Oxford, Cambridge and Hull equal as everyone knows Oxford is a dump (Blackadder!)