Posted By Calum Cameron MIOSH Dip 2.OSH MaPS I find in my travels that there are many people out there who consider themselves consultants when in fact they have a NEBOSH Construction Certificate or the Dip 1 only. Is it right that someone with this level of qualification titles themselves as a consultant and what would be the correct level to carry this title? I happen to think a consultant should be of RSP status as a minimum. You would not call a junior doctor in a hospital a consultant after all, even though they may have attained a given level of academic qualification. I wonder what the forum thinks?.....

Posted By Richard S Pigg Consultant is a job title, referring to someone who provides a consultancy service to a client. Is it necessary that every assignment requires high levels of skills, training and qualifications. Would an RSP enjoy spending there time undertaking workplace assessments of small-medium size offices - if think not. The work of a Consultant with 12 months experience and a NEBOSH Cert is just as valid in certain environments. After all you have to get the experince in the first place to become an RSP. Richard Pigg Key People

Posted By Paul Craythorne I have over 15 years experience in HS&E and have fancy letters after my name similar to you Calum. For the last 15 months I have been a self employed consultant and like the previous respondent I make a fairly decent living out of it. My clients don't ask me what courses I have been on or what letters I have after my name. They want to know if I can deliver a good service at a good price and I do. I can get testimonials to this effect and they are worth more to me than letters after my name and certificates on the wall. Regards, Paul Craythorne

Posted By Jason Gould I personally would say that someone could consult with a con cert or dip 1 as long as they know when to draw the line in the consulting world. And there are plenty of lines that are probably crossed. I for example would not dream of offering advice to a nuclear reactor's construction etc etc however I do feel that a SMC who otherwise would not bother if there was not consultants ready to give them information, would be a reasonable area for a techsp or construction cert or even a dip 1 etc holder. Remember these courses and others like them always emphasise about knowing ones limitations. On the flip side some people can get ignorant of the basics when reaching a certain level. I felt the difference between the Cert and dip 1. It is a matter of individuality. A 45 year ex builder old with a construction cert is going to be a lot more site aware than a 24 year old post grad. That said, the post grad would not have conflicts of interests etc, to deal with and probably better in certain circumstances i.e. overseeing control measures etc. At the end of the day it’s up to the companies to really decide and do their homework. This subject is too varied to make any assumptions as to others capabilities. Good advisors bad advisors they come in all guises. It was earlier said about spending 7 years going up the ladder to go and just do some risk assessments would just bore the hell out of me. But at my stage it is good experience to do what I can i.e. assosiate work, cover etc. jason

Posted By Mark Bywater Calum, I understand your point, however MHSW Regs, reg 7 (5) looks at what competence is, and it talks about training, experience and knowledge. This could then mean that someone who has undertaken Nebosh Diploma training, but failed the exam could be competent??? They could then call themselves a consultant, surely??? Who needs qualifications eh??? Mark

Posted By Geof Must use that in future - more letters than in name, nice one. Agree with your sentiments as well, 8 years in consultancy and I can only think of a handful of occasions where the subject has been brought up by the prospective client (and only ever once asked for PI). My concern is the people who flaunt the initials but that's another topic!

Posted By Calum Cameron Good God!!!! Opened a can of worms here haven't I. Don't shoot the messenger-it was only a question not a slur on anyone's ability. Some good points though-very interesting-especially the defensive tone of some responses.....intriguing.....

Posted By James Byatt Maybe we should link this thread to karen's on the 4 C's... Everyone has 4 C's after their name, Criminal, Clueless, Compliant, Champion. Put a star next to that which applies to you the most. On a serious note, would an employer seeking a consultant not go through a similar process as they would when selecting a sub-contractor? One would hope thier vetting procedure should highlight the level of competence and that the consultant in question is honest enough to provide the correct details. Next in my cloud-cuckoo-land eutopia I'm off to watch England stuff Portugal 6-0... James

Posted By Calum Cameron Not too sure why there is all the fuss about letters after your name. That was not the purpose of the initial thread. Come on Portugal.

Posted By Calum Cameron I'm an Anglo-sweaty sock by the way who lives in Poole where the sun shines all the time (not)

Posted By Karen Todd LOL at your suggestion James. I guess consultants are like contractors, and as such if you engage them you have to ensure their competence. When I worked in consultancy, people did occasionally request our CVs before engaging our services. I am sure I remember reading about a court case involving an incompetent consultant, but the details escape me at the minute. There was also an article in SHP about a consultant who claimed to have a qualification (P402?) that he didn't actually have. Where I work, we don't use letters after our names on business cards etc. and we don't use titles either (such as Dr.). Karen

Posted By Mark Bywater Calum, I have to agree with Geoff here, plus the fact that Dip 1 can get you RSP status would blow holes in your argument. Mark

Posted By Geof Which appears, in your opinion, and which you have mentioned again, to come down to letters after names. You really need to consider competence as a combination of factors, and not just blindly assume because they are members, fellows or whatever, and have letters after their names that they are competent. I note you are a member of an organisation I resigned from several years ago because I felt there was a lack of professionalism in it - where does that leave me (or you)? You still haven't explained the 'defensive' note you mentioned?

Posted By Mike Craven Maybe I'm missing something here, but how can you get RSP Status with Dip1? As far as competency is concerned, I'd agree with respondents who say that it's for the client to decide what and who they want. There is, of course, an IOSH register of consultants - and I would assume that to get on this register you have to demonstrate some level of competency - if that's what the client is looking for. But there are other ways of demonstrating competency. As far as designatory letters are concerned. Yes, guilty, I use mine (millions of them) all the time - its my personal preference. But that's because I was a complete nonentity for the first 37 years of my life - as opposed to being an incomplete nonentity for the past 5!!!! I wouldn't claim that the MIOSH,RSP particularly guarantees that I'm more imcompetent than anyone else although, since we are chatting on the IOSH site, I would say that I sincerely hope that it counts for something!! I worked for 6 years under a Health & Safety Manager who fell into safety some years ago - "Your job has disappeared inder the latest re-org, but we can offer you project-work, forward planning or health and safety at the same grade". He only ever studied for in-house company (low risk) training courses until he took the BSC multiple-choice diploma just prior to his retirement. However, he attended and contributed towards various H&S networking groups, taught me all I know, and was the most competent safety "professional" I ever met. Mike

Posted By Merv Newman One last point (perhaps) about RSP - and also about losing touch with the basics. To stay on the register you have to prove that you are still up to date and learning. This includes going to meetings, writing books, articles, presentations, trainings etc but in the main it means "what are you doing that is new" (to you) i.e are you still learning or are you in a rut ? Living abroad, I have never been to an area meeting, have only ever attended one IOSH conference and only one one-day seminar at the Grange. I still manage to rack up the brownie points. However, one of the fun things about being a consultant is that you have to keep ahead of your clients. They all know the old stuff like Safety Management Systems, risk assessments etc etc so what can I offer them in addition to all that which will change the direction of their safety effort ? You gotta keep up lads

Posted By Merv Newman Rob, hi, I do remember our day out in Paris together - let's do it again sometime. Cant remember why I went for RSP, status perhaps, though I cant see it has ever been of use to me. As I said above, I can't get to meetings or training courses. When it comes to CPD I just list all the new things I have been doing over the past couple of years. It used to be SMS in a different industry, lately it has been mostly behavioural based safety - different systems, industries, companies etc. Need any ? Very best regards Merv Newman

Posted By Christopher Wills A timeless lesson on how consultants can make a difference for an organisation, but be careful of unleashing a persons initiative. Last week, we took some friends out to a new restaurant and noticed that the waiter who took our order carried a spoon in his shirt pocket. It seemed a little strange. When the busboy brought our water and utensils, I noticed that he, too, had a spoon in his shirt pocket. Then I looked around and saw that all the staff had spoons in their pockets. When the waiter came back to serve our soup, I asked: "Why the spoon?" "Well", he explained, "the restaurant's owners hired a consulting firm to revamp all of our processes. After several months of analysis, they concluded that the spoon was the most frequently dropped utensil. It represents a drop frequency of approximately 3 spoons per table per hour. If our personnel are better prepared, we can reduce the number of trips back to the kitchen and save 15 man-hours per shift." As luck would have it, I dropped my spoon after enjoying my soup, and, yes, he was able to replace it with his spare. "I'll get another spoon the next time I go into the kitchen instead of making an extra trip to get it right now." I was impressed. I also noticed that there was a string hanging out of the waiter's fly. Looking around, I noticed that all the waiters had the same string hanging from their flies. So, before he walked off, I asked our waiter: "Excuse me, but can you tell me why you have that string right there?" "Oh, certainly!" Then he lowered his voice. "Not everyone is so observant. That consulting firm I mentioned also found out that we can save time in the restroom. By tying this string to the tip of you know what, we can pull it out without touching it and eliminate the need to wash our hands, shortening the time spent in the restroom by 76.39%." "After you get it out," I inquired, "how do you put it back?" "Well," he whispered, "I don't know about the others, but I use the spoon."

Posted By Brett Day I've been trawlling around and this seems to be the most common definition of a consultant: Entity (individual, partnership or corporation) engaged to provide professional independent and expert advice or services. Normally never an employee of the hiring institution. Can't find nought about RSP, FIOSH etc... Obviously a consultant in ANY field should be competant in thier field to whatever level and also IMO know the limitations of thier competance - Something I've found somewhat lacking. I was involved in a project that another consultant had been involved in, the individual was more highly qualified than I (in H&S terms) but had never been involved in this particular industry. Needless to say he threw his letters about and made a complete botch of it. Client not happy, sacked consultancy, brought my employer in who put me on the job (on the basis that I'd worked in that industry prior to doing H&S). I'm only TechSP but my previous employer called me a consultant and put me out to clients - I provided professional and independant advice in areas that I am competant in. More and more I'm finding this obsession within H&S circles with alphabet soup after the name. I don't think it's productive, it puts people off and in my experience doesn't do our image much good. Brett Day - D.C.B.M.E.BNRSP, M.O.B.G.H, etc... (Miffed Off By Gong Hunting)

Posted By Peter Lee Allan what about OBE; Other Buggers Efforts !

Posted By Geof Isn't that a matter of perception Calum. I like to think I've got a sense of humour - unless I'm dealing with idiots!