Posted By STEVE HI CAN ANYONE GIVE ME SOME IDEAS OF WHAT ARE GOOD PERMIT TO WORKS OR WHAT ARE BAD. WHILST MOST OF THE PTW THAT I HAVE SEEN ARE TICK BOXES I WONDER IF THIS IS A GOOD SYSTEM. THERE IS SO MUCH THAT CANNOT BE SEEN OR TOLD ON THESE. I HAVE SEEN A PTW ISSUER HAVE TO ISSUE UP TO 20 PTW A MORNING NEARLY EVERY WORKER IS THERE AT THE SAME TIME[08.00]. THE PTW ISSUER NOT ONLY HAS TO MAKE THE PTW OUT ,BUT ALSO TO DO THE ISOLATION ON PARTS OF THE PLANT,AND THEN COME BACK TO MORE MOANING WORKERS BECAUSE THEY HAVENT STARTED YET. NOT ONLY IS THIS VERY STRESSFUL FOR THE PTW ISSUER BUT YOU CAN SEE THAT HE IS LOOKING AT HOW MANY MORE HE HAS TO DO AND SAPPING BY THE MINUTE. I BELIEVE THIS COULD ENCOURAGE MISTAKES BEEN MADE,ALSO IT IS PLAIN TO SEE THAT FROM STARTING OUT IN THE MORNING ALL KEEN[READING M/STATEMENTS] THIS GENERALLY PETERS OUT AND THE TICK BOX PTW BECOMES GENERIC. THIS TO ME IS SCARY! IS THERE A AMOUNT OF PTW A ISSUER SHOULD DO IN A GIVEN TIME TO MAINTAIN HIS COMPETENCE AND DO THE JOB PROPELLY. SHOULD THE PTW ISSUER HAVE A HELPING HAND TO DO HIS RUNNING ABOUT AS SUCH[ie,ISOLATION] ANY IDEAS OR THOUGHTS WELCOME STEVE

Posted By STEVE HI BOB WE ARE ON A LARGE INDUSTRIAL SITE IN S. HUMBERSIDE,AT ANY ONE TIME THERE ARE 2-300 PERSONS ON-SITE. THERE ARE 5 MAIN SECTIONS OF PLANT,EACH HAVING ITS OWN PTW ISSUER,THE MAIN TASK IS SORTING THE CONTRACTORS PTWs OUT. THE PLANT IS BEING CONSTANTLY UPGRADED SO THERE IS ALWAYS A LARGE AMOUNT OF CONTRACTORS ON-SITE. WHEN I SAID THAT THERE ARE UPTO 20 WORKERS AWAITING PERMITS EACH MORNING, THEY ARE NOT ALL AWAITING ISOLATION. BUT EVEN IF ONLY 2 WERE I FEEL THAT THIS EXTRA WORK OF LEAVING HIS STATION COULD PROVE TO BE A EXTRA BURDEN TO HIM. ESPECIALLY WHEN SO MANY OTHERS ARE AWAITING FOR THEIR PERMIT AND ARE GETTING RESTLESS AS THEY TO ARE UNDER PRESSURE TO HAVE THEIR OWN JOBS DONE ON TIME. YES! I KNOW THE PERMIT ISSUER HAS TO HAVE THE KNOWELDGE OF THE PARTICULAR PLANT TO PUT HIS OWN PROCEDURES ,ISOLATIONS,HAZARDS ON THE PERMIT TO MAKE THE CONTRACTOR SAFE FROM THE PLANT ,BUT I CAN SEE THAT SO MANY PERMITS TO DO,METHOD STATEMENTS TO READ ,ISOLATIONS TO DO,RESTLESS WORKERS TO CONTEND WITH[WITH ABUSE],THEN ON TOP OF THAT HIS OWN JOB TO DO AS A OPERATOR COULD LEAD TO MISTAKES BEING MADE. THAT IS WHY I AM SAYING THAT AT THE START THE KEENESS IS THERE THEN THE GOING THROUGH THE MOTIONS CREEPS IN. I JUST FEEL THAT THE PTW ISSUER SHOULD BE RELEIVED FROM HIS DUTIES AS A OPERATOR SO HE CAN CONCENTRATE ON HIS MORE IMPORTANT ROLE OF PTW ISSUER AND ONLY WHEN THIS IS DONE SHOULD HE BE MADE TO DO HIS OWN DUTIES. YES I KNOW THAT TICK BOXES HAVE THEIR USES,BUT I DO FEEL THAT THEY ALSO MISS THINGS ASWELL AS REMIND US, AND I COULD IMAGINE IN THIS SORT OF INSTANCE THAT IT MUST HAPPEN A LOT JUST TO TICK OF THE EVERY DAY HAZARDS AND TICK BOX SUGGESTIONS. THESE ARE ONLY A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT I MYSELF AM WORRIED ABOUT ,I AM SURE THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT MAKE A GOOD/POOR PTW. BY THE WAY THE SITE RUNS 24HRS A DAY,7 DAYS A WEEK, 12 MONTHS A YEAR. NEEDLESS TO SAY THE WORKFORCE DIFFERS AT DIFFERENT TIMES. ANY SUGGESTIONS OF GOOD POINTS TO PTWs,OR BAD WOULD BE MOST WELCOME.

Posted By Stuart Nagle Steve. From experience there are many forms of PTW's, some good, some poor, some tick box and some not. What really counts, tick box or not is this; 1) a PTW is NOT a safe system of work, only a part of it. There are other things you must do than simply filling in a PTW form. You have already identified one, Isolations. The PTW must go hand in glove with; a) a written safe system of work. b) risk assessements that are suitable and sufficient c) safety method statements, which identified the safety processes of the work and those which must not be carried out 2) a good permit to work will identify the procedures that should have been completed prior to the issue, ask that they are checked as having been done and also identify other areas, such as a) other PTWs required e.g. hot work b) Emergency and rescue c) Atmospheric monitoring and testing requirements and results d) checking isolations made previously 3) protecting the employees carrying out the work is vital, hence a PTW. It is also necessary to protect other persons, including rescuers, should the need arise. in order to do this, the first box on our PTWs asks; 'Has a risk assessment and safety method statement been prepared, the work team briefed, and the documents attached to this permit to work? For obvious reasons, this information should be available on the site of the works, for reference. 4) It rather sounds to me that there is a case to be made here for a permit issue person to be appointed on a full time basis, if, as you state, works are 24-365 a year, and the volume of work is as heavy as indicated. It appears to me to be a potential safety blackhole if one person is expected to do this and maintain other duties as well. Sooner or later, at the rate you describe, something is going to hit the fan !! You will themn be into the 'I told you so' defence mode. Remeber; the 6 P's; Proper Planning Prevents [expletive deleted] Poor Performance. make a case and present it, quote numbers/volume of PTW issued, risk levels, how this is likely to effect outcomes of incidents, identify near-misses, permits missed or erroneous, mistakes and over simplification which could result in incidents.The potential outcome if things go wrong !! unfortunately, no one can fix it but those involved, so get cracking. best of luck... Stuart Nagle

Posted By Angela I know that virtually every safety person will have their own story to tell. I just wanted to say that you obviously know that the Permit system is not adequate so please, please, please make sure you get improvements in place soon. My father witnessed an accident, he was a fitter, I was 14 years old then, my brother was much younger. My Dad saw his colleague undo an inspection hatch for maintenance work. A permit to work had been signed to say the vat was empty, it was not empty. A vat load of boiling soap cascaded onto his colleague, all my Dad could do was drag him to a shower. That Christmas my brother had a letter published in a children's book. It simply said in very childish scrawl, Dear Santa, I do not want any toys this year, please give my toys to my Dads friend, he got bad burns at work. I'm 35 years old now, and the impact of that event still spurs me on to make the workplace a safer place to be. Work hard at winning over hearts. Do everything you can to get the system changed and improve the culture. Take Care.