Posted By Eric Beach I can’t give you a definitive answer to this and that is probably because there isn’t one. But as someone who does fire drills fairly regularly in NHS clinics and office buildings, this seems quite a reasonable time. The guidance, as you have mentioned, doesn’t give times. Rather it defines escape routes in terms of distances. So if your fire risk assessment identifies that the travel distance is above the levels identified in the guidance document, then you might need to do something. If you have disabled employees, then the time might be somewhat greater. That is probably part of the reason why the guidance is based on distance rather than time. If you have concerns then you could always have a discrete chat with your local community fire safety officer at the Fire Brigade. They will probably be able to give you a more definitive answer but I think a 1 min 45 seconds evacuation time for a three-storey building is pretty good and I doubt that they will have any problem with that.

Posted By Gilles27 We are 220-ish in a two storey and get out in under 4 which I am pretty relaxed about given the layout. If there was smoke around I am certain it may speed up - folks will be less likely to evacuate via the coffee machine.

Posted By AJM The fire manager and fire warden training i was involved in recently one of which was with the fire brigade said obviously as quick as possible but 2.5 mins to 3 mins as a gauge. Alan

Posted By garyh I used to work for ICI who had their own fire service. They had a really good (ex County Brigade) fire certification expert and he always told me "less than 5 minutes". Also you must have your head count done when the brigade arrives - in practice this was about 5 mins for the onsite brigade and 10 minutes for the County brigade. We made these our standards (chemical works and associated office blocks, some on large sites that took you several minutes to get to the assembly point!) All well and good, but when you think about it what about skyscrapers eg Canary Wharf? I believe that the World Trade Centre rqeuired a long evacuation time - remember you have to use the stairs not the lifts. I think that the overall rule is that there is no set time, you must deal with this in your risk assessment and control measures. Under 2 mins is great for evacuation in my opinion but you must get the head count done quickly also.

Posted By Nigel Hammond Many thanks for your helpful replies. Just a couple of further questions: Garyh - thanks for the comment about the importance of a quick head count. I hadn't really considered the speed of this as an issue before - however, it did seem to take a long time. We have a new receptionist who does not know many of the faces in the building so she was having to go round with the signing in sheet and ask people who they were which made the process time-consuming. Any tips on making roll calls for 60 people more efficient would be welcome? Would fire Marshalls be necessary? Phillipe - Would you mind explaining to me what the Categories A, B and C are in the Appendix B document. many thanks Nigel

Posted By Charley Farley-Trelawney I am informed that in days gone by when a variety building caught on fire the orchestra would play while the people evacuated the premises. This would take around two and a half minutes, and the music would continue whilst evacuation took place, the band would then leave after the tune had finished, thus a datum line for evacuation was established. Is this a complete crock or is there a grain of truth? CFT

Posted By garyh One thing I did on a chemicals site (higher Tier COMAH) employing around 70 people plus contractors was to have the assembly point made into 3, with signs up for different groups - eg Office staff, visitors & contractors; Engineering personnel and labs; Process personnel. The Main site controller (COMAH inevitably makes you do this sort of thing!) would asign marshalls to each head count. We had prepared sheets for each group to back up the swipe card electronic print out. This works quite well - if you don't know faces at least you have a manageble group and you can shout names. If a real incident (or even in an exercise!) the fire brigade will demand info RIGHT NOW! (I have always found Cleveland County Fire Brigade to be top drawer in an Emergency or Exercise).

Posted By Phillipe Head count or sweep? I suppose it depends upon the dynamics of your business. If you have a very fluid movement of people in and out then a head count may not be suitable. I prefer to use the sweep method as I feel it works best for our environment.

Posted By David Hicks In my experience the fire brigade aren't happy if there's no definitive head count, which is to be expected. But - in the specific instance of my site - they haven't demanded one. So we use the sweep system conducted by fire wardens. We have an office complex with (up to) 1500 staff so by the time the headcounts were all tallied and back to me at the control point, the building might have burned to the ground. Not to mention totally open flexi-time so people can (work schedules permitting) come and go as they please, and some have a line manager on another site and set their own schedules without having to consult anyone on site at all (including me)! Everybody's usually clear of the building (five floors, about a dozen exits)well inside five minutes, my measure being that the furthest exits are up to 400 yards from the muster point and arrivals stop within 5 mins. I'm broadly happy with the safety of this system, and we get enough evacuations (you can always rely on builders to forget to cap off a detector or cut a cable) to monitor it. What does drive me nuts is getting people to be fire wardens in the first place. I've just launched a recruting drive to fill gaps and got 3 (three!) volunteers. I've tried posters, our intranet, and even e-mailed everyone in affected areas personally. I don't like doing it, but it's time to write to senior managers and explain that unless someone volunteers from their area then they will be responsible for assuring it's cleared. Anyone else got any real-world advice for recruiting fire wardens? I don't like arm twisting, but once they've done the course, most people come out enthusiatsic about the role.

Posted By AJM Very interesting points I use similar to last thread, when I came to my present factory they had an inefective head count system. I integrated a sweep system into it with the head count also included it seems to work ok. I think especi But I was lucky I got 15 volunteers, and as they say its better to have one volunteer rather than 10 press ganged people. But I also have integrated a warden checklist and put some responsibility on them. Under the new fire regs there are certain checks etc that need to be in place and these wardens are best placed to do those checks. So the other point to remember is you are giving responsiblity to these people and with responsibility should come payment if only a token gesture as some already do for first aid trained people. In some ways you could argue with the importance of wardens being so obvious why it isnt like the first aid regulations and have 1 per 50 etc like those regs. I have also created my own policy to hopefully conform to the new regs. Any help required just give me a shout. Alan

Posted By AJM Gary, I would say in an office block the role call alone would be sufficient. I am saying I do both and the sweep system is a very helpful addition. I mean think about this we have over 250 people on site lots of transient labour moving from section to section and 30% foreign labour of all nationalities as lots do these days. So the sweep is vital I think in these situations to assist with the role call. As I said the sweep system as well as not instead of the role call.

Posted By Alan Hoskins Head counts are only suitable for buildings in which mostly employees are working. They cannot be used in buildings where the public are present in large numbers and the sweep is the only logical method. We have to use it in teaching blocks where it is never known who is present in the building at any one time. Your time for evacuation seems to me to be very good. Our times vary from half a minute to four minutes depending on the size and height of the building. Alan

Posted By anon1234 There are problems with sweeps and roll calls. Personally I go for sweeps, because if done properly they will confirm the building is empty. With roll calls, you always have the problem thatpeople decide to wander off, go home etc. this is especially true for office complexs in towns where the evacuation occurs at nearly going home time. Also with roll calls you need to be 100% certain about who is in and out of the building - which depending on your arrangements can be extremely difficult to safely determine

Posted By shaun mckeever Some of these evacuation times seem a bit dubious to me! I guess it depends on how you initiate the evacuation and when you start the stopwatch. Personally I prefer that as few people as possible are forewarned. I then approach a member of staff and tell them 'you have just discovered a fire, please take the appropriate action', start the stopwatch and watch the fun. If your staff are trained correctly then you have no fear and they will take the correct action but in my experience I find most staff do not know what the correct course of action is. As a result valuable time is lost whilst they fluster and fluff around until they work it out, meanwhile the fire (imaginary) continues to grow. I tried this on one of the directors of a major company in London. He was suitably embarassed but to his credit he made sure afterwards that he included himself and other principle staff in regular fire training.

Posted By Ali Your vague recollection is correct. The guidance was 2mins - it is not a legal requirement and we stick with that std in my Co.

Posted By DYNAMO CFT et al Yep I have heard the national anthem explanation before. Merv Yep you'd think electronic systems would help but they don't. When I worked in the brewery we took our first aiders and fire wardens out for the night. I got them all Becks T shirts as well when no one else could get them for love nor money( one of the brands we had just aquired) and they were chuffed. Plus when asked " How come you got the groovy t shirt" they answered " cos were part of the EHS team". Gold dust IMHO. Jeff

Posted By Richard Wright There is a lot of very sound advice in this thread and if I may I should like to add a few points of(I believe)relevance. Firstly ignore all reference to National Anthem. It is a complete red herring and also in that context it was completely wrong to suggest that the orchestra continue playing while the evacuation takes place. They too are important and must leave the building. I'm a bit worried about the case where it was stated the travel distance was 100 yards. If correct then this needs to be seen to without delay. Evacuation should be to a...Place of Safety. I used to describe this as...somewhere from where you could catch a bus if you needed to. In other words not in, as an example an enclosed yard from which there was no exit. However this is not feasible in a high rise building where specially constructed staircases can be deemed a place of safety provided certain conditions are present. If you are a fire marshall don't accept any nonsense such as not checking toilets, or senior management not included. Remember if you are not able to tell the FIRST fire officer to arrive that all person's are accounted for then he has no alternative but to institute a detailed search and finding later that someone has 'nipped out to the shops' will be dealt with in a very serious way, and rightly so. There is a good definition of Class A B and C buildings (above) though this need not concern other than the person in charge of evacuation drills as such detail goes into the initial planning.There are two things that can be relied upon when a Coroner is involved. First it will be obvious that he does not have much of a sense of humour and secondly there will for sure be someone who will tell him about such comments as...stand back and watch the fun begin. Fire Drills should be taken very seriously by all and a final reminder, if it is your responsibility to do so make full and detailed notes of each drill, of lessons learned and faults revealed and above all action taken to deal with them and to make them known. In the event of a fatality such records will be confiscated by the Coroner's officer within hours and it is surprisingly easy to determine if the entries were made at the time.

Posted By Richard Wright Yes I agree but we have advanced greatly since those days and now fire evacuation and drills to perfect procedures are given the highest possible prority and gimmicks, for that is all the anthem thread can be called have no place in this. So many people are looking for excuses to point the finger at failure and it is up to those responsible to give them no cause. I used to tell people,'cover yourself.' In other words leave no room for criticism. In doing so you achieve the desired objective.