Posted By Decimomal
Me again - with my metaphorical hard hat and flack jacket on ready for the volley!!

Anyway here goes.........

Internal fire doors are routinely wedged open from the beginning of the working day until the cleaning staff go early evening. These doors are clearly marked 'Fire Door keep Closed'.

I guess most of us have been in this situation and our initial reaction is to remove the wedges and make a fuss etc. I appreciate there may be a dispensation to allow ths practice for a short time to enable deliveries to take place but I am looking for a definitive pointer to the potential breach of the RRO or other statute. I have had a look under section 14 of the RRO but cannot specifically find any reference that states such things as fire doors must not be wedged or held open.

Workplace is a standard office environment over 3 floors.

The query has come up in the past but I don't know whether there was a definite answer.

I look forward to all practical and pragmatic responses (is that the right terminology?)

Regards,

Decimo.

Posted By garyh
I think that it is a straight breach of HASAWA Sec 8 "No person shall recklessly or intentionally interfere with anything provided in the interests of health, safety and welfare".

Therefore, a criminal act for which the individual, (or the person permitting it?) can be prosecuted.

Posted By DP
Decimomal - Don’t know of any - however, there have been prosecutions under the RRO were propping open fire doors formed part of the charges and I know of one case where it cost 25k.

If they need to be open for periods of time link them into the alarm system and put on automatic closers.

Posted By Decimomal
Thank you for the responses, I guess it is a quiet day for all the comedians out there!

It looks like Section 8 is the answer. Door stops etc are not really an option as there is no need for the doors to be left open in the first place.

Decimo.

Posted By garyh
The best fire door wedges are metal red things about 2 feet tall, 8 inches in diameter and have a trigger and hose.........

Posted By Bob Shillabeer
You say the doors are being wedged open but give no reason for this. Is there a reason why such action is undertaken like moving heavy equipment in and out? If there is try fitting automatic door controls, if not try taking someone to task with the sack, that should do the trick.

Posted By A Campbell
Habitual practices can be problematic in many cases.

Maybe show the film as to how fast and how easy for fire/smoke is able to spread without being checked as a wake up call ?

Posted By Jay Joshi
Have you investigated the reasons why the doors are wedged open? Are these automatic doors? Is it done to permit movement of materials, trolleys etc on a very frequent basis. Or is it sheer laziness?

Posted By ClaireL
Internal fire doors do not fall under H&S legislation so I am not sure if technically HSWA can be applied.Just a thought.

How about fitting devices that allow the doors to remain open unless the fire alarm goes off and then they automatically close (can't remember what they are called!)

Posted By Messy Shaw
As a fire service inspecting officer, I often have to issue notices under the RR(FS)O2005 on this matter.

Article 14(2)b is used, as it states:

"in the event of danger, it must be possible for persons to evacuate the premises as quickly and as safely as possible;"


The argument is that open fire doors spread fire & smoke more rapidly and prevent persons escaping as quickly and safely as possible

The FS guides issued by the dept of communities give info about managing fire doors

Posted By Ian J B
We use DorGuards on some doors although these are retro-fit as on the rest of the site we have magnetic holders on fire doors.

I went through a stage of having our maintenance team cut all door wedges into quarters whenever they found any, the supply soon dried up and people began asking for retro fit door holders. I've got round the issue of distortion of the doors by making sure they are regularly checked and only held on the doorguards when it's necessary to do so (movement of goods etc)

Posted By Hugo
Sorry i cannot remember the quotation from the old Fire Safety red book bible but it was something like this -

A fire door is a door; when closed, together with its frame and furniture meet the necessary stability, integrity and insulation qualities to prevent the passage of fire, smoke and the unburned products of combustion to a minimum specified duration.

I used to issue improvement notices for this and make a record (note for file) in the fire certificate folder, these were signed by the building owner / manager and held in case the building caught fire and then used in evidence if an open door spread or accelerated fire.

I also requested they remove the wedge and close the door in my presence.

These people are removing the protection of a means of escape (corridor or staircase) there will probably be self closing devices on the door and also vision panels. The other doors along the corridor will probably not have this protection and wedgeing them open removes the compartmentation of the corridor and creates a dead end and denies a means of escape...

I would not be amused with this practice as I have seen the difference between an area protected by a 30 min egg box typr door and open doors during a fire.
Is life really that difficult?????????? Request advice from your local Fire & Rescue Service "Fire Safety Department"

Posted By Fornhelper
Decimomal

I got round the problem of door wedges being used in one of our establishments by placing an offending door wedge on the 'wrong side' of the manager's door then asking someone to call her to come through to the main office whilst I stood close by and observed.

The door duly jammed when the manager tried to open it and I think I made the point that in the event of a fire, door wedges could result in doors jamming closed and trapping people on the wrong side.

In fairness she took my point on board and has now retro fitted Dorguards and there is not a door wedge to be seen!!! Added bonus was that she mentioned it at the next managers meeting and I must admit hearing a H & S message coming from someone else rather than me did gladden the heart!!!

Regards
FH

Posted By Decimomal
I think this thread has reached it's conclusion now, thank you all for your input.

My initial query about the legalities has been answered and I guess the final say would be on the back of an enforcement visit.

Ciao 4 now.

Decimo