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#1 Posted : 05 September 2008 14:47:00(UTC)
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Posted By AJM
Hi Chaps,

I have been looking into something lately and still seem to be getting different answers from different areas could anyone please give me their opinion of this. The story so far is..........

I wanted to find out how much of a facilities maintenance companies works would fall under CDM, I am not talking just notifiable here but outside that also, but still in the regs.

The CDM regs say this,

general maintenance of fixed plant, except when this is done as part of other
construction work, or it involves substantial dismantling or alteration of
fixed plant which is large enough to be a structure in its own right, for example structural alteration of a large silo; complex chemical plant; power
station generator or large boiler;

An HSE inspector i spoke to interpreted this the same as me in that most of the work in Facilities Maintenance would NOT be under CDM accept for major roof work week long etc which is a very small % of what we do.

But a few other people seem to be telling me thats wrong and that a day or say two hours work repairing a leak in a roof does come under CDM, their argument is in the wording of FIXED plant which is obviously process equipment which can not be moved and they say the roofing or flooring work would come under CDM no matter what duration the work takes.

I hate grey areas :) could i have opinions please based on what i have said.

Anyone in facilities maintenance would be most appreciated to chat with.

Regards
Alan

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#2 Posted : 05 September 2008 15:06:00(UTC)
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Posted By peter gotch
Hi Alan

Fixing a hole in the roof is maintenance of part of a structure and thence "construction work" within the meaning of CDM, just as it was a "building operation" under the Construction Regulations 1961 and 1966. [Loads of case law on what constituted a "building operation" whose definition is incorporated into the definition of "construction work"

Regards, Peter
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#3 Posted : 05 September 2008 15:16:00(UTC)
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Posted By AJM
Fair enough Peter, then WHY are the HSE Inspector i spoke to and HSE advice line saying it doesnt come under CDM.

Surely they wouldnt inform me incorectly

Alan,

Thanks by the way for your input
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#4 Posted : 05 September 2008 15:49:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
AJM

Do not presume the infoline and all inspectors give the right answer - they do not.

If the work is construction work then CDM applies. The intention with fixed plant was to differentiate the engineer in the factory/premises doing routine maintenance such as oil and filter changes or adjustments, from actual construction works where the plant is being structurally modified or removed or installed.

If it is construction work CDM07 applies.

Bob
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#5 Posted : 05 September 2008 16:43:00(UTC)
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Posted By peter gotch
....and Alan, the reported incidence rates on minor construction works are substantially greater than those on larger projects, e.g. those which are notifiable.

Four of the seven roofwork fatals that I investigated as an HSE Inspector related to work akin to your repairing hole in the roof.

Regards, Peter
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#6 Posted : 08 September 2008 09:31:00(UTC)
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Posted By AJM
Thanks Peter for your input thus far and i understand the dangers of the work i was just puzzled as to where it sits with all the differing information.

Just so i can get clarity on this, what you are saying is; no matter if its a 30 minute roof repair, gutter clean, repair of a door or reapir a hole in a floor?

They all come under CDM 2007 NON notifiable of course.

Regards
Alan
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#7 Posted : 08 September 2008 11:01:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kenneth Patrick
On a related issue; if we were to use a contract company instead of our own fitters, to re-route the gas pipework to our boilers on an industrial site would that bring the work under the CDM regs?

Ken
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#8 Posted : 08 September 2008 12:43:00(UTC)
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Posted By KGB
I am in agreement that all construction work comes under CDM 2007 - many in the industry however have the mistaken perception that it only applies to notifyable jobs. This is not the case (although there are additional responsibilities for notifyable works).

Therefore with regard to you employing a contractor CDM still applies - only your role (and subsequent responsibilities) might have changed.

Therefore your responsibilities as a client would include ensuring that the contractor is competent to carry out the works (an assessment of thier experience and track record in these type of works commensurate to the task in hand is therefore necessary).
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#9 Posted : 08 September 2008 12:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By KGB
or of course in the scenario posed by Kenneth he is acting as a principal contractor - also with the responsbility to ensure the competance of contractors working for or on your behalf.
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#10 Posted : 08 September 2008 13:06:00(UTC)
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Posted By Iolo Roberts
Its a two fold test in my mind.

Q1: Nature of work: is it construction or not? (taking a broad view to avoid grey areas)

If no then usual controls for maintenance work e.g.isolations, permitry, risk assessments etc.

If yes then ask yourself:

Q2: CDM Notification Threshold: to notify or not to notify?

If not notifiable: apply controls for construction work

If notifiable: appoint CDM-C et al, notify and manage to the CDM regs.


Its worth a poke around the Association for Project Safety website.
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#11 Posted : 08 September 2008 13:14:00(UTC)
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Posted By Iolo Roberts
Oops, new to the forum and can't find the edit-entry facility.

In addition to what I say above. All construction work needs CDM to be applied its just to what extent. It is this that notification indicates: full CDM or part-CDM.
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#12 Posted : 08 September 2008 13:15:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
AJM

Go back to the definitions, which for clarity I have copied below from the opsi website.

structure” means—
(a)any building, timber, masonry, metal or reinforced concrete structure, railway line or siding, tramway line, dock, harbour, inland navigation, tunnel, shaft, bridge, viaduct, waterworks, reservoir, pipe or pipe-line, cable, aqueduct, sewer, sewage works, gasholder, road, airfield, sea defence works, river works, drainage works, earthworks, lagoon, dam, wall, caisson, mast, tower, pylon, underground tank, earth retaining structure or structure designed to preserve or alter any natural feature, fixed plant and any structure similar to the foregoing; or
(b)any formwork, falsework, scaffold or other structure designed or used to provide support or means of access during construction work,

and

construction work” means the carrying out of any building, civil engineering or engineering construction work and includes—
(a)the construction, alteration, conversion, fitting out, commissioning, renovation, repair, upkeep, redecoration or other maintenance (including cleaning which involves the use of water or an abrasive at high pressure or the use of corrosive or toxic substances), de-commissioning, demolition or dismantling of a structure;
(b)the preparation for an intended structure, including site clearance, exploration, investigation (but not site survey) and excavation, and the clearance or preparation of the site or structure for use or occupation at its conclusion;
(c)the assembly on site of prefabricated elements to form a structure or the disassembly on site of prefabricated elements which, immediately before such disassembly, formed a structure;
(d)the removal of a structure or of any product or waste resulting from demolition or dismantling of a structure or from disassembly of prefabricated elements which immediately before such disassembly formed such a structure; and
(e)the installation, commissioning, maintenance, repair or removal of mechanical, electrical, gas, compressed air, hydraulic, telecommunications, computer or similar services which are normally fixed within or to a structure,

I am struggling to see where your inspector informant was coming from. The duration of a task has no influence at all on whether some work is subject to CDM - only the nature of the work is the deciding factor. The endeavour to avoid calling the work construction is liable to backfire if something untoward happens.
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#13 Posted : 09 September 2008 09:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By db
My guess is that the Inspector was defining "under CDM" as notifiable work. All construction work comes under CDM and there's nothing more you need to do than you would otherwise.

I'm guilty of the same thing sometimes - if someone asks a question about CDM I automatically refer to notifiable work as this is where extra duties come in.
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#14 Posted : 09 September 2008 14:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By AJM
Thank to all that replied,

I do understand fully the notifiable part but the missunderstanding is irrelevant really i suppose because as long as you have the correct systems and procedures in place you will be covering most bases anyway.

Thanks again to all, you have all helped for me to understand it all a little better.

Regards
Alan
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