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Banned thermos flasks from an office environment
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Posted By Darren Crossman
i have been asked for some advice and have an idea but need some clarification.
A compnay is moving into a new office premise, which has been fitted out to be fit for purpose and comply with all legislation.
they have a restaurant and vending machines, although only cold water is on free vend.
i have been asked if it is lawful to stop employees bringing their own hot drinks to work in a thermos flask if they chose to.
Havinig read the workplace health safety and welfare regulations i interpret regulation 25, para 234 as supporting the individuals rights to bring their own drinks to work.
i can appreciate that there may be a strategy in place to 'encourge' the staff to use the vending machines or the restaurant for their hot hot drinks, but surely not to give them as the only option.
i would very much appreciate any comments and advice.
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Posted By Phil Rose
Why on earth would anyone want to stop someone bringing in a hot drink?
Plrease this is a health and safety forum!
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Posted By Darren Crossman
thank you for your response, but as welfare is an integral part of Health and safety this is a legitimate question and is in the correct place. it's not all about people getting hurt and the big issues. sometimes its the Small things that affect people just as much. if i can help just one person, then i am happy for being able to do so.
Please don't belittle questions on this forum.
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Posted By andy.c.
Phil
1 1/2ltrs of hot liquid perched on a desk next to electrical equipment?? some of us just need a little help and advice
Darren,
is the ban being introduced for safety reasons (as above)?, in the office only or in the restaurant as well?, are staff allowed vended drinks in the office?
i am pretty sure this is to increase sales from the vending machine but a R/A may deem the risk of a flask avoidable, find out the reasons and seek advise from HR. I'm sure there's a compromise there somewhere
Andy
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Posted By stephen d clarke
Hi,
Assuming their are no chem/bio/radioactive issues with the work and where staff are allowed to eat and drink it seems unreasonable.
Steve
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Posted By Phil Rose
Darren
It wasn't intended to belittle
I am well aware that welfare is an integral part of HSW but why would anyone even think that there is some law preventing people bringing hot drinks or flasks into work? The answer of of course there isn't!
Phil
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Posted By Pete48
An employer cannot insist that employees purchase drinks or food at any canteen or restaurant. If there is no other suitable place to take meals or rest, then employees should be able to use the canteen space to consume their own food and drink.
Employers can set any rules they like about bringing in thermos flasks or anything else for that matter provided that they have met their duty under the "welfare regs". To ban them in order to prompt use of a profit making canteen would be a step too far for me.
So, as with a lot of this stuff, it all depends on the detail.
The previous comment about who would want to do this were valid I think. Not belittling you just expressing incredulity at the inane approach. It does seem a rather draconian measure unless there are specific business or workplace reasons for it.
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Posted By Pete48
Sorry guys, typing while you were posting. Didnt mean to repeat.
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Posted By Phil Rose
Andy
I am more than happy to give help and in the past few days have gone out of my way to try and give good, sound advice on a number of posts. I did not intend to belittle anyone and I apologise if it was taken like that.
If I can make amends by saying - no it isn't illegal to bring your flask into work per se. I see no big issue with bringing a flask into an office environment.
I don't think Reg 25 or para 234 of the ACoP is especially relevant in determining whether someone can bring a flask into work, what it is saying that there is no obligation to buy anything if you chose to sit in there to rest.
Phil
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Posted By Andy Petrie
There was a recent thread on here about employees spilling cups of coffee/tea whilst walking back from the kitchen. A lot of the respondents suggested that flasks were used.
I really think you'd have a hard time banning this and it sounds more like a revenue raising exercise than a H&S issue.
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Posted By Coshh Assessor
Phil - Darren wasn't asking if it was illegal to bring in a thermos (and nobody else has suggested that it might be), he was asking if it was illegal for the employer to *ban* bringing in a thermos!
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Posted By Coshh Assessor
My interpretation of the regs is that hot water must be provided (eg from a kettle) - not that employees are entitled to bring their own hot drinks.
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Posted By A Campbell
Problem is... what lawfull reason would you want to ban such a thing?
Do you not require facilities for employees to eat & drink at work.. you may be on a sticky wicket if you are not providing the option of facilities to make their own drinks but nothing wrong in installing vending machine as a second option if employees wish to pay and use as opposed to making their own.
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Hang on a bit, the comment about welfare also being part of this psoting is quite correct as the law says H&S and Welfare, but this leads all to often into human resources issue and away from H&S that is why some people get rather frustrated at the constant rabbiting about subjects that are not safety related just like this one. The next thing will be about not being allowed to bring sandwiches to the office. Get back on message please.
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Coshh Assessor
On what do you base your interpretation; doesn't the law only require a supply of drinking water?
Paul
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Posted By A Campbell
Bob... you missed have missed that one's been on recently!
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Posted By SteveD-M
Are you really serious? The Workplace Regulations state that an employer must provide the facilities to 22 - Adequate drinking water (where does it say hot?)
25 - Adequate facilities for rest and to eat meals.
This seems like an attempt to recoup the money on the vending machines.
I would concede on drinks at the desk including flasks. But to ban them from the entire workplace would be unreasonable, unless this is a high security area?
Could be an opportunity for a claim on discrimination. I would take the case....
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Posted By Coshh Assessor
I haven't looked it up recently but doesn't it refer to "a means of making a hot drink"?
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Posted By Coshh Assessor
So I've looked it up - this is from the ACoP:
232
... Eating facilities should include a facility for preparing or obtaining a hot drink, such as an electric kettle, a vending machine or a canteen ...
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Sorry, Coshh
Missed that as it is not under Reg 22.
Paul
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Posted By Darren Crossman
Thanks all, it was pretty much as i suspected and was wrangling with in my own mind. as you quite rightly say its one of those areas that cross over between H & S and HR - but then most things seem to be going that way.
it has provoked some interesting discussions and points and i'm glad my thoughts were pretty much as all of yours.
thank you
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Posted By johnbakerteamleader
This is precisely why your industry is looked upon with such disdain my the working population who actually get on with work.
The fact that you've got a forum load of professionals genuinely debating whether or not people can bring thermoses into work is simply absurd.
IOSH are keen to get away from H+S's terrible image, but if these are the kinds of issues that H+S people are paid to ponder over, it's no surprise that your struggle is uphill.
How can you have created such an industry that thrives upon the most absurdly trivial details? The only reason you can say such things are important is because others like you have created legislation to enshrine the importance of such banal matters. H+S is a self perpetuating nightmare or jobsworths. Sorry, but it's true.
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Posted By Phil Rose
John
while I don't agree with your penultimate sentence, I can't help but feel you have a point, hence my response to the first post.
Health and safety does have a poor image at times (hence your post) and we should rightly move away from trivia and concentrate of those issues that cause serious injury, illness and deaths due to work activities.
Phil
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Posted By Flic
John
Many of us feel much the same. Unfortunately these questions come at us from the workforce and from the management, and we have no alternative but to give them due consideration and an answer.
If we dismiss them, the workforce and management may feel less likely to seek our advice when they really need to.
Flic
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Posted By Stuart Kirby
RE: John Team Leader
Agree totally with Flic.
Most H&S professionals often get caught in the middle with similar arguments/discussions between employees and employers.
Consider this too - the post has been viewed over 700 times, if one person goes away after reading it and helps prevent injury (serious scald, trip on spilt liquid etc) with SENSIBLE risk management is this not a good thing?
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Posted By graeme12345
I think we should leave this one for Xiao Bao to answer,
but it is foreseeable that someone could knock it over with hot liquid in it and scald someone (remember MacDonald's)
and windows get opened in warmer weather ,then a bee flies in in, well all hell could break loose!!!
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Posted By GaryC40
John,
Correct.
I always have a chortle at 'we in the safety profession' comments.
'We' who engage in safety, health and welfare as a source of livelihood or as a career must eliminate or reduce this nonsense.
There is just as much chance of scalding ones self with a cuppa rosy lea.
No one, no matter how articulate, no one will convince me that a thermos flask is a SIGNIFICANT risk.
Managers or supervisors who come up with this type of rubbish are obvoulsy of the muppetry persuasion.
Lets get a grip.
Hmmmph
GC
Utter claptrap - what next i wonder?
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Posted By Peter F
This is why heath and safety is often seen as a laughing stock. Isn't using a thermos like using a kettle etc. i.e. you have to pour the drink from it, the water is not as hot as coming from a kettle.
It doesn't say anything about hot drinks in the regs.
It's about time we started dealing with activities that pose a significant risk and not making cups of tea, ironing, using a hoover etc.
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Posted By chrisroyal
Blimey, give the guy a break. His original question was perfectly reasonable: he’s not saying it’s a significant risk, he just wanted to know how to respond to a query from the workforce about what the employer can and can’t insist on. You can just imagine it, can’t you:? “Sorry mate, no thermos flasks in here, health and safety regs.” Which, as we all know, is nonsense. He probably put the question on here expecting a reasoned response to a situation like this, explaining why there is no reason not to bring a Thermos into work. I hope he wasn’t too disappointed.
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Posted By Peter F
When you post an item on the page then your question or query is open to whoever wants to reply. When people are dealing with thermos flasks and the like what are they missing.
I do appreciate that when employees ask the question you need to respond to keep them looking at h&s., but sometimes you need to also explain that on the grounds of health and safety there are no reasons why if used correctly that a thermos flask should be banned and that this is a management decision and the management need to say why they can't be used. or simply ask the management to produce a risk assessment (management regs 3) which highlights there concerns.
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Posted By Pete48
Err, isn't this a public access forum? Why on earth do people think any of the comments on here are from safety professionals or in any way represent anything other than a place to discuss H&S issues?
The original question is very, very,typical of an issue that would be discussed at the bar or on the Clapham Omnibus.
To infinity and..........
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Posted By Sally
As usual most of the responses are, in fact, not answering the question.
The OP didn't ask if thermos's were a good idea or safe or a significant/insignificant risk.
What he asked is if it was legal to ban employees from bringing water in in a thermos flask. Answer - yes. Regulations quite clearly state that a vending machine is acceptable as a means of providing a hot drink. Therefore the employer can ban thermo flasks and still comply with the law.
Whether it is a good idea is a whole different discussion.
It's this inability to actually answer the question being asked that gives H&S professionals a bad name not concerning themselves with trivia.
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Posted By Coshh Assessor
Well said, Sally - I was starting to wonder if no one else had read the same question that I did ...
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Posted By GaryC40
Sally
Management may indeed ban the flask but they cannot use H & S legislation as an excuse.
Their decision must be wholly company policy.
Gary
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Posted By Safe System
Chap brings his brand new Thermos into work looking very proud of him self.
Safety Advisor says "Whats that?"
"Its a thermos, its designed to keep hot things hot and cool things cool.."
Safety Advisoy "ah,ok - so what have you got in it"
"A choc-ice and coffee"
(wind sails through followed by a tumbleweed)
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Posted By Peter F
Maybe we all interupted the question differently, or is it that they have not given the answers you expect.
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Posted By Safe System
The fact its taken this many posts to answer a question starts a new type of joke..
"how many safety consultants does it take too...."
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Posted By Coshh Assessor
The question has been very much interrupted! Honestly, what could be clearer than:
"i have been asked if it is lawful to stop employees bringing their own hot drinks to work in a thermos flask if they chose to."
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Posted By Peter F
Then he's on the wrong page this is health and safety not alegal page
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Posted By Ian Futcher
Darren
If you manage to get this far down the page...
There is no "LEGAL" reason why a thermos should be banned. There is no set of "Health and Safety (thermos flasks in the workplace)" Regulations.
If the Boss wants to ban them, they can set up a rule in the office and enforce it as a site rule, but that then becomes a term of employment, and as such is broadly outside the scope of this forum.
Please excuse my exuberant colleagues... they mean well..
Best regards.
Ian
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