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Posted By Andy Wignall
The Home office has recently commented that terrorists are likely to use a dirty bomb in the UK at some point.
The government want to train workers in regard to counter-terrorism vigilance and responce.
How does this effect our industry? I would think it effects it quite significantly if they want to train employees in counter-terrorism vigilance.
Can we discuss...
The link is here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7960466.stm
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Posted By Safe System
wonder if we would have to get the terrorists to fill out a risk assessment and ssow!
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Posted By Andy Wignall
In all seriousness, asking an employee to technically spy on suspected terrorists will have severe repercussions.
Im just trying to look at the bigger picture
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Posted By Dave Merchant
Of course they are - it's a no-brainer in terms of cost-benefit for the terrorist on a budget.
However, it's not OSH unless your employees are doing CBRN response work. Security, emergency planning and business continuity maybe, but there's no point in dragging "health and safety" into the argument. What would you do, exactly? Issue everyone with Geiger counters and CBRN suits? X-ray everyone as they approach your door? Tell them to stay away from suspicious men with suspicious beards?
When it happens, I'll guarantee nobody will have the faintest clue until the dust settles, no matter how much 'preparedness training' they may have had. You're looking for something smaller than a phone, which probably won't be loud enough to notice from the next room.
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Posted By Andy Wignall
Thanks Dave
I only have 2 years of good H&S knowledge, so thanks again.
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Posted By stephen d clarke
Hi,
IMO more empty words by the labour party, plenty of sound bite rhetoric but I expect little in the way of sensible, practical, financed action.
Steve
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Posted By andy.c.
Andy
There are two parts to this statement the first "vigilance" does not really affect the reallity we live in, i doubt if there is a location of any threat that is not already uder survailance by trained cctv operators.
The second part "responce" is where the concerns start, what effect will "a responce" have in a busy shopping centre on a saturday afternoon!
I can also see the ambulance chasers rubbing their hands together with the prospect of civil claims for defamation and common assualt when someone mistakes an agitated shopper for a terrorist.
I agree that it will probably go unnoticed until after the event and then i am sure that like the brave soul at Glasgow airport, someone will react to the situation, with or without training
IMHO
Regards
Andy
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Posted By Stefan Daunt
There around 40,000 members of the reserve forces, the large majority working within civilian occupations (when not away on tour), a large proportion are probably employed in areas that have been identified as possible terrorist threat areas.
Although training another 60,000 people in vigialance is a good thing, it could be more productive to expand on the skills that are already out in the civilian areas from the reserve forces?
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Posted By Safe System
In all seriousness..
I can see this going all wrong..
We live in a fickle society where people are judged based on appearance. You now train a member of the public/work place to look out for suspicious people.. lets face it, people will be pointing the finger at what they believe is a 'stereo-typical' terrorist...
its a shame that people can not be trusted.
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Posted By Dave Merchant
Andy's right - the concept of "response" is moot when dealing with a radiological incident. If a nail bomb goes off in a shopping mall, you can reasonably expect your staff, should they still be alive, to offer help using their normal FAAW training. If a fire breaks out, they can help with their normal fire marshal training. They can make tea for the firefighters. Simple stuff.
If London, or your street, or simply your receptionist, is coated in radioactive dust there is NOTHING you can do other than running away and calling in the emergency services, unless you happen to work at a nuclear power plant. The absolute last thing we need in CBRN response is to find extra contaminated victims piled up because they wandered about trying to apply sticking plasters. Harsh it may be, but if someone's bleeding in the hot zone, they aren't going home. Period.
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Posted By DPK
stephen d clarke
I do not defend any one or any organisation which i feel does not deserve defending, but on this occasion Stephen you are a country mile wide of the mark. I can absolutely assure you a huge effort and very significant resources have be allocated to this issue over the past years since 9/11.
We all need to remember, unless we have ALL the facts we can not make a unbiased judgement.
DPK
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Posted By Messy Shaw
I agree with the last post that huge amounts of real direct cash (not promises or spin) has been spend by the Govt on training and equipment since 9/11.
All 999 services have had their roles significantly altered, especially the fire service whose role in disaster/terrorist response now accounts for a significant part of their resources.
Whilst some new kit can be used at various emergencies (eg Buncefield, various major floods such as Carlise), other specialist units (ie. decontamination units)are available 24/7 with immediate response capabilities.
Whether they've done it right, got the right kit or supplied enough training remains to be seen. But to simply shrug aside the considerable effort and expense by the Govt for party political reasons is naive and plain wrong
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Posted By GaryC40
I am very surprised, disappointed and somewhat concerned by the negative remarks on this thread.
Many in 'our profession' already incorporate security related issues in our daily work with no problems.
Quite frankly to suggest that security related training is irrelevant and only good for making the emergency services tea is an ignorant comment.
GC
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Posted By Garry Mcglaid
Speaking personaly,
NOT as a Health & Safety professional
I refuse to give it a seconds thought,
I will not change my daily business
I will indeed continue to strut about proud,
And i will advise any one who asks the question the same thing.
We are Health & Safety professionals.
Not the Bodie and Doyle,
Or as Del boy would say, he who dares wins.
Get a grip folks
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Posted By Peter F
This type of vigilance as been going on for years, every time you go to an airport you are asked to ensure that you keep your bags with you, you are searched, watched by CCTV.
We did this with the IRA so whats new, oh there will be training in being vigilant.
Years ago in a large motor company after quite a few bomb scares staff were actually asked to walk around and look in cupboards etc. rather than the plant being evacuated yet again.
If we look at it in the realms of health and safety then all of us have a responsibility.
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Posted By stephen d clarke
Hi,
In response to the above I have absolutely no allegiance to any political party although I have been a member of several trade unions in the past and I suppose I would be described as coming from an "old labour" background. I have seen though through my own experience and through the dreadful experiences of family and friends the disgraceful state of some of our hospitals and schools and the appauling amount of wasted money, need I mention failed IT systems, it appears that everything the government touches turns to dust.
Steve
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Posted By Dave Merchant
GaryC40 - you're missing the point, though the other Garry gets it. Anti-terrorism "vigilance", response, etc are NOT health and safety issues, they're security issues. Not IOSH's concern.
You may have a dual role, but that's irrelevant. The security guard on the door of your supermarket does NOT work for their health and safety department.
However, I'll play along - what exactly do you propose teaching your staff to do about it? Remember we're talking specifically about the news article, so your staff are looking for a member of the public with a cannister of nerve gas.
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Posted By Descarte
Realistically I dont think it does effect our "industry" unless you are a divisional safety advisor for a constabulary or involved with any of the other emergency services or army, then you have likely already been involved in CBRN exercises since 2001 (I think majority of CBRN joint exercises starting taking place round 01).
Other major organisations which may be a target (oil majors, nuclear sites etc.) may include the possibility of a CBRN event in to their emergency planning and response plans.
But as already mentioned the the effectiveness or actual ability to mitigate the outcome of such an event by a SME or any one other than the police or armed forces would likely be negligible.
Though im not saying we should not be vigilant or aware, individually we should weigh up the possibility and realistic contingency / mitigation measures as a company in line with realistic benefits such actions would bring.
Rather a sombre discussion for a friday
Des
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Posted By Jez Corfield
Strangely there are many H&S personnel who are involved in security and emergency preparedness, to state that "the security guard on the front door doesnt work for H&S" is simply wrong, as sometimes (though not always) they do work for H&S.
...and many H&S professionals DO work for organisations at the heart of this: transport, healthcare, emergency services, so this is directly related to H&S colleagues where this is part of their responsibilities.
As for training hotel/shop workers, I doubt this to train them to run around like "Bodie & Doyle" - but if I was involved in H&S (and possibly security) for shops/hotels, especially in a city centre, I would be keen for some staff to attend a training day on "preparedness". Remember, hotels and shopping centres have been the target of significant domestic acts of terrorism recently.
Some of you may have no involvement in security, and do not work in affected industries, if so then this will just bypass you, but some of our H&S colleagues have no option, security is part of their responsibilities, and when the invite for training/involvement comes through the letterbox it will land on their desk.
Jez
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Posted By GaryC40
Dave Merchant
To the contrary, security is very much related to safety and risk management! Many HS people operate in environments where security is high up on the agenda such as Ports and Airports. Are you seriously suggesting that there is no link between H & S and Security? To be honest i feel i cannot contribute anyone to this ludicrous argument. Get real.
I,m off before i explode in uncontrolled rage :)
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