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Posted By Edward Shyer
following on from another thread "have we gone too far. I believe we should be doing more to champion h&s in the workplace. How often do we read of companies being brought to justice for blatant disregard to their legal responsibilities.
Although I do try to take a common sense approach to safety I can honestly say that I have never been involved in any fatalities.
Having heard comments elsewhere that, H&S has gone too far, is it time to make a stand and say we have not gone far enough and should be going further.
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Edward
Whilst there two sides to every story I think we have already gone too far in many respects. The fact that there are still people getting killed and injured at work is largely because of weak enforcement, frugal penalties by the courts and the law is often inadequate with dealing these issues. Where the law is appropriate it simply has not been implemented to its full effect.
Joint enforcement action, for example, by HSE and LAs has steadily fallen from nearly 40,000 Enforcement Notices served in 1992/93 to 13,750 in 2007/08. The number of prosecutions has also declined year on year from 1,720 in 2003/04 to 1,028 in 2007/08. Whilst the average penalty per conviction (less fines of over 100k) has hardly increased from £6,534 in 2003/04 to £7,809 in 2007/08.
During a five year period between 2002/07 only 33 company directors/senior managers have been convicted under s37 of HSWA, none of these convictions involved directors of medium or large companies. Whilst during this same period over 1,000 workers have been killed and over 700 members of the public have been killed.
The Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986 allows for the disqualification of a directors of a company if they have been found guilty of indictable offence relating to the company. Yet only a mere 10 or so directors have ever been disqualified for health and safety offences whilst thousands have been disqualified for financial impropriety.
Only five people have been given custodial sentences between January 1996 and 2005 for health and safety offences and no senior officers of large companies have ever been prosecuted for corporate manslaughter. The Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 will not address this issue as there is no individual liability for directors. If, any prosecutions arise from the Act, it will only catch the 'tip of the iceberg' of non-complying companies anyway.
It is, I'm afraid to say, wake up time for some people...and smell the cofee.
Ray
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Posted By John Allen
Yes!
Fatal and serious injury accident frequency rates are still too high in many industries. Just walking down the street it’s possible to see many potentially dangerous situations and breeches of simple H&S requirements. I still read reports of people being killed and injured in circumstances identical to those I witnessed as a junior inspector thirty odd years ago. Then there is the whole issue of occupational health which has never been properly tackled.
There is a vested interest in this country which would love focus on health and safety to be reduced and are delighted when the media run their spoiling stories. Yet for every over reaction I’ll bet there are ten or a hundred situations where the risk has not been assessed or the simplest precautions taken.
The duty we owe to people at work is to ensure that we do not lose sight of our objectives. We cannot give up.
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Not forgetting occupational health/ illness issues which can take decades to develop and can have a much wider individual and socio-economic impact than the more immediate tradegies of workplace death or major injury.
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Posted By Pete48
If you accept the ideal of zero accidents, then there will always be further to go. But just as with any improvement there comes a time when progress gets harder and harder as you get closer to that ideal. Then just when you think you have it in sight, something moves the goalposts.
So I agree we have further to go but we need to be better and better and more focused on where we are going. I think we are probably close to if not at that point of overreaching the benefits against the costs in some areas. I also have concerns that simple use of legal penalty will only have limited impact. Justified though it may be it is not the whole answer.
I feel less importance on outcome goals and better balanced use of learning goals would be more helpful. "I can't change the direction or the strength of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." is I think a line from an old American sailors song and seems to suit the mood.
Going straight to a complex destination is rarely possible when sailing through life. Learning to read the wind, deciding when to go about and when to gybe are all things to learn and enjoy on your journey without putting your arrival at risk. Your skill merely affects how long your journey takes, not your point of arrival. Learning how to sail is more important than arriving at your destination!
And once you know how to sail, you have learnt and understood the rules and are capable of assessing risks. However, you might still want a navigator to help make the best choice and to give you the best chance of reaching your destination on time. The one thing that you never want is no wind!
Of course there will always be the unaware or uncaring chap who will think that heading straight across the bay against the wind is the only way to take the prize money and will never listen to wiser souls. Pity the crew of that ship, but don't let that pity divert you from your plan.
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Posted By clairel
Edward, may I first say it seems a slightly childisch approach to post this thread considering BOTH sides of the issue are already being debated on the other thread.
Second, you are still happily skirting round what I actaully said. Of course we should continue to champion H&S in the workplace and prevent death, serious injury and ill health where reasonably practicable. My argument is that in many areas H&S is being led my a risk averse insurance culture and over-zealous practionaires and assessors.
My experience of this is not based on working for one employer o one environment. As a consultant I see different companies every day and so I get a real cross section of business.
The blanket ban on ladders on many sites is just one example of going too far. Incidentally there has been an increase in other types of accidents involving WAH now because of the switch from ladders.
Over-zealous interpretation of guidance is recongnised by the HSE, which is why they withdrew guidance on safety of gravestones due to an over-zealous interpretation of their guidance (see 'may contain nuts').
Don't forget the HSE promote sensible H&S. My argument is that many people and organisations seems to have forgotten that and IMO take it too far.
By all means have a different view point but please stop twisting what I have said.
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Posted By Frank E. Davidson
"The blanket ban on ladders on many sites is just one example of going too far. Incidentally there has been an increase in other types of accidents involving WAH now because of the switch from ladders."
Heh, I got my card marked on site for using steps in front of the site manager and his boss. I was told off but argued that the WAH regulations intended common sense to be applied and he in fact had signed a permit for me to use the steps in that area. 3 rungs up Get me! Living on the edge!
Fine he'd rather I erected a scaffold in a restricted space with loads of rubble on the deck and crouch down to avoid impaling myself with redundant rods poking down, like stalactites, from the ceiling.
Perspective, man. Perspective.
OTOH I left the last site partly because of poor illumination, having to work off steps all the time, despite it being possible to use podium steps and do the job more efficiently. I just seemed to be moving steps all day and dropping stuff. The last straw was when I dropped my new battery drill.
The common denominator in using mobile scaffolds where not appropriate and steps where not appropriate is fatigue and I wish site management H&S would factor that in. It's just too tiring taking down towers and putting them up again and too tiring moving steps. around all day.
Either way, it's all about perspective.They seem to overlook the important stuff but God help us if we've safety glasses on a bit squint while using a chopsaw (any chance of a visor?)
(Still waiting for nerve conduction velocity tests then orthopaedic surgery possibly due to inappropriate provision of access equipment. I'm sure the problem is due to overstretching.
Although a 6 month wait so far, hell will freeze over before a H&S person actually asks any of us 'workmen', us untermenschen, labelled to BS EN 471 - our health and safety concerns.
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Posted By Edward Shyer
Clairel,
With the greatest of respect we are discussing whether or not we should be going further to champion H&S in the workplace. If that is being childish then so be it.
Regards
Ted
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Posted By Pete48
Hi Claire, was it you who chastised someone else for being patronising in a recent thread?
I think many share your view that risk management has taken a wrong turn and turning that around is the biggest single current challenge for safety in the workplace. Your answer is to leave safety behind and move onto other stuff. This thread is promoting discussion from the other angle of accepting the challenge--childish?
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Posted By Pete48
I have noticed that a lot of responses to this and the other simultaneous debate offer many examples from the construction sector. A sector that has traditionally struggled with managing contractors. Is that a fair representation of safety in the workplace I wonder?
Are there any examples from SME or companies that don't use a lot of contractors and subbies and don't have to get involved in all the tests and accreditation jungle?
Like Claire I visit a lot of companies across a wide spectrum of business. My view is that risk management has generally lost it's way and is actually reinforcing risk aversion rather than promoting risk management. This is why we can all think of situations where the decisions on risk do not match our assessment.
The stark reality is that there are still far too many work related injury and ill-health cases. That is because we have gone too far in some cases but clearly nowhere near far enough in others. Thus, our risk assessment techniques or their application must be flawed since they clearly do not do what it says on the packet.
By going further in that area, we will improve the understanding and thus the sensible control of risk. Not an easy task so it needs committed, competent individuals for it to have any chance of success.
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Posted By Frank E. Davidson
I don't think it's a case of whether H&S professionals could go further it's whether they can empower the people that are doing the job and facing the hazards to get a safe working environment they are entitled to.
The reality in construction at least is it's an FIFO policy... Fit In ...
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Posted By clairel
My comment about it being childish to post this thread is because it is exactly the same discussion as on the other thread but posed the other way round. Edward was in the miniority on the other thread and suddenly this thread appears. So yes there seems to me an element in childishness in posting this one just so he can make the same point he made on the other thread. Sort of stamping his feet.
The topic isn't childish, I never said it was, just the reason for this particualr thread emerging in these circumstances IMO.
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Posted By Edward Shyer
FOOT STAMPING.
Sorry I do not throw tantrums.If this thread is being used as a tool for others to chant their own opinions and rant on and on! then I for one do not wish to get drawn into the debate. As I originally asked should we not be going further to champion H&S.Can we now stick to this thread.
Regards
Ted
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