IOSH forums home
»
Our public forums
»
OSH discussion forum
»
A question regarding welfare facilities on a small building site.
Rank: Guest 
|
Posted By murray-t
We are about to start a new job replacing security fencing and camera towers, this includes digging holes, poring cement and erecting the fencing. There will be approximately 30 to 40 persons on site at any one time, with the job taking about 6 months. The question is do we need to supply secured lockers, separate changing rooms and drying rooms? The site management are suggesting we use the drying room as our changing room and as a place to leave any clothing not being used, no lockers, and that any personal stuff be locked away in the site manager’s office. I’ve had a look at the CDM Regs, the Welfare Regs and the Construction Welfare Regs, and the CDM Regs say “Suitable and sufficient facilities shall, where necessary, be provided”. The part my managers are using to get around providing these facilities is “shall, where necessary”. The thing is I would like a separate area for changing and locking away of clothing from the drying room. What do other construction HSE persons think?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By paulw71
30 to 40 persons over 6 months digging holes, pouring cement, in all weathers. I would say you would have to have a bloody good excuse for not supplying them.
Regards
Paul
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Richard Altoft
Don'T forget CDM does not displace other Regs such as PPE Regs -- see from reg 8 that PPE storage is required and if that incls trousers jackets etc for concreting and bad weather then that will act as storage for street clothes when PPE is in use.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Ron Hunter
I wouldn't call that a "small" building site!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By paulw71
sorry just re-read and noticed the bit about lockers. Yes to the other things but unsure as to the provision of lockers. think you may have a job on to justify that one.
regards
Paul
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By graeme12345
as long as you have got room in the changing / drying area(common sense should dictate if you need anymore room/s))for all persons to hang up any wet clothing to dry, each operative has enough room to change into work gear,the place is kept tidy and clean then this is sufficient. There is not a requirement to provide "secure" conditions for clothing, unless of course you are having problems with operatives using anyone's gear, in which case it is a management issue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By murray-t
Richard,
I've had a look at the PPE Regs. unfortunately as we are the PC it's up to our subbies to supply the PPE so i can't use that as an excuse. So it looks like i might have to bite the bullet and accept I've lost this one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Southerner
Here lies the biggest problem with CDM, contractors STILL do not have a clue even 10 years on.
How did you come to be appointed as principal contractor if you know nothing about basic principals of CDM? Were any competence checks done? Clearly not.
The mind boggles.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By graeme12345
An excuse for what, getting your own way, H & S should not be used as a stick, it's either required or not,you put into place what you think will cover all significant events based on what you consider to be "reasonably practicable"
You have not "lost this one",
You could never have "won it",because you did not know the answer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By murray-t
graeme12345
It’s not a case of getting my own way as you put it, I’m trying to find a reason why we should have a cabin with lockers in, you know, some place secure to put your clothing, PPE and personal items to prevent them from being stolen when you’re out on site. The main reason the management don’t want a locker cabin is the cost, and that’s not a guess as the site manager admitted it to me.
Yes you’re right I don’t know the answer that’s why I’m asking on here for one, and as you seem to know it all, how about passing one on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Nick TM Patience
As you have identified the relevant bit of the CDM Regs are Regulations 9(1)(b), 13(7) and 22(1)(c)and more importantly Schedule 2 paragraph 14 sub paragraph 3 [http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20070320_en_6.]
To decide whether the facilities are "necessary" you will need to check the suitability and sufficiency of the proposals. This basically boils down to this:
Can 30-40 workers special clothing which is not taken home, or their own clothing which is not worn during working hours and their personal effects be accommodated in the managers' office? This in effect means 40 jackets and 40 pairs of boots plus 40 bags or rucsacs. I know that you said only personal effects were to put in the manager's office but the wording of paragraph 14 (3) means that all three sub paragraphs a, b and c must be secured. The suggestion made of storage elsewhere doesn't sound secure to me.
The suggestion made in Construction Information Sheet No 18 that on smaller sites the site office can be used I don't think would apply to your circumstances as I don't think 30-40 workers is a small site. This small is relative to the industry not what your company considers small.
I'd conclude that you would need to provide the facilities you have suggested. How is the site manager to do their job surrounded by these heaps of clothes -and oh yes - is there room for 40 coat hooks?
Hope this helps.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Peter F
Can I just point something out 'shall where necessary' in health and safety the word 'shall', imposes an absolute obligation to do, and it is not permissible to argue that it is not impracticable to do.
Look at the workplace regs. reg 23, 24, 25.
PPE regs reg 8, you could try and use this regs. guidance, accommodation, It should protect from contamination, loss or damage. Don't forget if it is communal then it could be taken by someone else and used, leaving you without. Also PPE is 'personal' so do you really want someone using yours?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Peter F
sorry, should read 'it is not permissible to argue that it is impracticable, difficult or even impossible to do'.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Bob Youel
Use COSHH and as many other laws [& case law] as are applicable for your argument to put your point then end it there
Security is a big issue for personal belongings as well as PPE/COSHH areas so use this subject as a point to consider
Again its another loop hole in CDM as any CDMC would not pick up this area
All that said its the clients that also need educating as if your company do whats best they may lose the work to another company on price alone and the enforcers need to be more proactive
its interesting that the issue of lockers causes so much debate ---- In my personal opinion we Brits are still hundreds of years behind common decency thoughts regarding front line staff. Having worked for the Irish, Scots, Yanks, French, German, Dutch, Spanish, Italian etc their examples of how they treat their own are much better than than ours. Additionally lockers are fully tax deductible so their provision should cost nothing!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Peter F
So therefore there would be no on cost so the company should not lose a contract on price.
|
|
|
|
|
|
IOSH forums home
»
Our public forums
»
OSH discussion forum
»
A question regarding welfare facilities on a small building site.
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.