Rank: Guest 
|
Posted By teaboy
afternoon all, opinions pleas
we have a small fleet of vehicles, ranging from cars to LGV's. they are tracked electronically via a GPS system, it has come to the attention of a manager that some of his drivers are speeding regularly and excessively. we want to improve our management of vehicles when they leave the depots by introducing systems such as random monitoring of the tracker data and initiating disciplinary proceedings against persistent offenders. (with me so far?)
our HR consultant says that we cant do it, its not our problem how the men drive and that we cant control what they do when they leave the depot. my argument is that we should try to prevent speeding and therefore reduce the potential for accidents as i believe we may be vicariously liable for any offences committed by the driver.
am i on the right track?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By clairel
I think your HR consultant is talking rubbish!
They are at work in a work vehicle. Of course you would be expected to take action.
(many years ago I was given a warning for the very same thing :-0)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Neil R
When they are out on the public roads, their offences fall under traffic laws and not under health and safety legislation that is the way HR seem to see it.
However since they are the companies vehicles they have the right to what they want with them, if they wish to use the data gained from tracking devices etc then so be it. If they wish to fit rev limiters/ speed limiters on their vehicles it would be their choice so i don't see trackers being any different.
Easiest way to satisfy HR? write a policy and have the directors sign it, if its company policy that excessive speeds are recorded and displinary action taken then there is no argument.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Bill01
Teaboy you are right and your HR consult is wrong.
You have a duty to your employees and other road users. If one of your drivers were to run into a queue of pedestrians at a bus stop and you had data to hand to show the individual was constantly speeding and your Company chose to ignore it, your Directors would almost certainly be having their collar felt by the local constable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By graeme12345
They are your employees driving your / or their vehicles (should have their own business insurance)carrying out work for the you and you pay them for it
You could have a claim taken against you by a third party / the police or the HSE.
You should already have issued some standard rules/procedures for your drivers to adhere to.
get all you drivers together and go through them again! and inform them that you will only tolerate 2 cases of speeding, any more after that and you will look at the employees conditions of employment and possible disciplinary action
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Richard Altoft
If you know of an unsafe practice with the potential to kill employees and public and do nothing about it then expect Corporate Manslaughter to be an option if deaths occur.Driver can also be charged with manslaughter as well as death by dangerous driving etc.
Offences under H&S law if committed with consent of a director or another become an offence by that other person S37. However speeding under Road traffic law is unlikely to lead to a director being arrested but remember as well if a speed camera catches a speeding vehicle and the driver is not identified buy the "registered keeper" then the company can be fined and if the keeper is a person such as a director or Co owner they can get points on their licence.
R
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Stefan Daunt
This is the problem over the disciplinary over GPS tracking.
"However speeding under Road traffic law is unlikely to lead to a director being arrested but remember as well if a "speed camera" catches a speeding vehicle and the driver is not identified buy the "registered keeper" then the company can be fined and if the keeper is a person such as a director or Co owner they can get points on their licence".
If he gets caught by a speed camera driving at 75mph on the motorway it will be points possibly.
If the driver is seen to be doing 75mph on the GPS which is uncalibrated, can you discipline him? would you discipline him for 5mph over and if he does it x amount of times lose a possible valued employee.
And don't tell me that people shouldn't drive over 70 mph. I am aware of that. Vans should only do 60 mph on dual carriageway's over 2 tonnes but don't. So with GPS could discipline for that as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By RP
As staed above your HR rep is not on the same planet.
Have you a Driving at Work policy?
If not draw one up which will allow some form of discipline where drivers are breaking the law. Bear in mind that you must ensure drivers are aware of the policy and the measures to ensure complience with it...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Phil Rose
Yes, HR consultant does seem to be talking total nonsense. Turning a 'blind eye', when there is 'hard' data there to be seen would seem, at best foolish and at worst a possible S37 offence (consent or connivance). I suggest policy, information, and then if necessary disciplinary
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Stuff4blokes
Excessive speeding was mentioned in the original post.
A good fleet and road risks management procedure should have measures to deal with this, from both public safety and corporate reputation points of view. Anyone who travels by road sees commercial vehicles carrying company names; if these vehicles are being driven at excessive speed then we tend to form an opinion of how these companies are managed. Worse is at the scene of an accident where it is apparent that excessive speed is a factor and a company name is highly visible.
For any organisation to be aware of and to condone and fail to address such behaviour by its employees (or agents) is reckless, weak, foolish and an abdication of its duties.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By andy.c.
Teaboy
you mention LGV's in the OP. i presume therefore somebody holds a CPC and is named on the operators license, this person will be able to tell your HR the importance of dealing with persistent speeding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Jay Joshi There is very good guidance from ROSPA on "Driving for work: Safer speed policy" at:- http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/info/workspeed.pdfDoing nothing when you are aware your drivers are speeding when driving for work is not an option. The ROSPA guidance gives various pointers, including the need to have a "speed policy" and you arrangements for implementing it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By David Passmore
There are also insurance implications that may need to be considered.
Insurance companies may not be to keen to insure a companies fleet or indeed pay out on a claim if it is discovered that persistent offending has been overlooked by the policy holder.
DP
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Interesting one this, how about corporate manslaughter charges if the employer knew but ignored incidents of speading in company vehicles? The short answer is the employer is aalways the employer even when the employee is not on the premises but out on the road so the legal duty still applies. The standard of driving still needs to be managed and the likelyhood of an offence being committed is widely known about so must be managed. Forget about disciplinary action against the offender, manage the problem and get drivers to comply with the law I know its hard to ensforce but the employer has to be able to prove he has done what is reasonably practicable to control the risk.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By David Passmore
Another point I missed was that if drivers of LGV's within a particular company are persistently breaking the law (not necessarily speeding), VOSA have the authority to cancel or reduce the Operators Licence's issued to the company for their vehicles.
This alone should be enough to convince management that suitable action needs to be taken.
DP
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By John Richards
This depends on the accuracy of the speed-measuring equipment. And the accuracy of the location. So, you must mean that some vehicles are flagged at way over 70 mph, which is the highest speed allowed on an English road.
Your vans (NOT car-derived and over 2 tonnes) are not legally allowed to travel at higher than 50 mph on a s/c road in England, 60 mph on a d/c road and they can only travel at 70 on a motorway. They can also only drive a maximum of ten hours a day. I wonder if that is enforced ?
Not to worry: just tell them that you know exactly where they've been, how long they are there and what speeds they have been driving. You could easily end up with everyone driving way below the speed limits. Good for safety.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By David Passmore
John,
Just to clarify the rules on vans, the driving hours you quoted are in respect of domestic (GB)rules, however, any vehicle/van (for the carriage of goods) with a maximum permissible weight exceeding 3.5 tonnes falls within the scope of EU drivers hours regs which are more complex, particularly with respect to drivers hours.
Furthermore, if any of the vehicles fall into this category, they will likely be fitted with digital tachographs which will provide a detailed analysis of the drivers activities.
DP
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By John Richards
We'll stick to under 3.5 tonnes then shall we ?
That's all I can drive anyway.
The speed limits for those are widely ignored. Well, completely ignored really. And observance of same would be beyond the scope of tracking devices currently used. Indeed, even trucks fitted with current digital tachos break speed limits as a regular every-day event. I note that siemens digital tachos have a gps logging add-on coming along. And it seems that same may be a requirement in the near future.
The speed limits for trucks are
S/C= 40mph
D/C = 50 mph
M/way = 60 mph
With limiters set to 90 kph.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Phil Rose
Teaboy - I reckon you're on the right track, I don't think anyone here is dissenting from that. You really have to question the competence of the advice/position of your HR people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By teaboy
ladies and gentlemen,
thank you all for your most constructive advice, i'll be taking the replies to my posting along with some other info that i've gathered to the managers meeting this afternoon and be pressing for an enhanced driver training and education programme. i'll let you know how i get on
the teaboy
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Stefan Daunt
Hi John,
I'm not being picky, Just wondered if you were sticking to under 3.5T, why you gave speed limits for over 7.5T?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Posted By Chris N Jones
Just one more to throw in the pot and consider;
Why are the drivers speeding, is it just a matter of personal discipline and awareness or are they being given unrealistic schedules and targets to be met?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.