Posted By jonnyjc_01 Hello i have a query that seems to raise a few eye browse of concern. Also this my first thread on the forum. I am a health and safety officer within a company, we have an employee who falls asleep constantly and without warning during work hours. He almost falls off his chair and on one occasion he collapsed head first into his computer key board,then falling sideways onto the person next to him. He has been questioned by management several times and states he is being treated for sleep apnea. We have various forms (eg lone working risk assessment) that include medical questions such as do you suffer from........... the employee states on all he has no health or medical complaint that poses any risk to himself or others while at work. although not for work the employee still drives. however nothing would prevent him driving for work due to him not declaring in writing he has a problem. The managing director only wants department managers to make a note of times through the day he falls asleep? i think there are concerns against following on from this due to disability discrimination and the fact it has been allowed to occur for over 5 years. I have numerous times outlined my concerns to managing directors but nothing else happens,not even a request for his medical file from his doctor to see how serious it is and what treatment he is being issued. what can i do?

Posted By andy.c. Agree with the above sounds like narcolepsy, can you speak to the guy and explain that you need to ensure his safety, he may open up and allow you access to his medical records. Narcolepsy is reportable to the DVLA, and i'm pretty sure would disqualify him from driving, this may be a bigger concern to him than falling asleep at his desk. HR also need to be involved in this Andy

Posted By jonnyjc_01 thankyou for the reply. i agree after looking up the symptoms, most likely narcolepsy. My main concern is how to deal with it. throughout the course of a day the individual falls into a deep sleep snoring, out cold, this happens several times an hour, worse during hot weather. what would the implications be if he fell off his chair and hurt himself or anyone else. again as he has not declared any health problem on lone working form, what would happen if he fell asleep, fell off his chair and banged his head when he was working alone. normally on saturday morning, the office is secure, the rate he falls asleep it would be difficult to create any safe system of work. it is a difficult situation on many areas but if the company continue to leave it without response, something will happen. i have no idea how the company or myself as health and safety officer would be implicated. regards john

Posted By Kieran J Duignan Jonnyjc Your statement 'i think there are concerns against following on from this due to disability discrimination and the fact it has been allowed to occur for over 5 years' raises questions not only about your organisation's policy on fair discrimination but also on its policy on management of performance. Sadly, where a history of denial of relevant facts clouds a work situation, it can too easily become enmeshed in the kind of avoidance behaviour you describe. It appears obvious from what you write but may be worth making explicit that one can assume that the employee you refer to is not productive during the times he is asleep. So, the absence of any information in your story about the behaviour of the gentleman's line manager(s) and of whoever is responsible for guidng policy and practice on performance and discrimiantion management is odd. Allowing for these gaps in your account, and the impasse you are in without relevant inforamtion from a medical doctor, may I offer a persxpective that may open up an avenue for providing the employee, you, the managing directors, the line manager(s) and whoever has responsibility for the (HR) issues about discrimaintion and performance management? Since the gentleman's behaviour (refusing to acknowledge a condition that influences hiw work performance) is a non-standard form of psychological behaviour, in order to make the reasonable adjustments specified by the DDA, it can be appropriate to arrange for a personality and motivational assesssment by a (chartered) occupational psychologist, who should also review his responsibilities, work tasks and work setting and offer a range of possible adjustments and, if the psychologist is a qualified counsellor, perhaps a form of specialist help that the gentleman may be willing to avail of. This can both provide all concerned with some fresh information and remove from you the burden of trying to resolve a psychological problem which appears to be beyond your specialist expertise. If this proposal appeals to you, broadly speaking you have the choice of a chartered psychologist who is a member of the British Psychological Society and whose experience dwells in occupational puzzles of the kind you outline; or of a clinical or counselling psychologist, registerd with the Health Professions Council, whose experience focuses more on individual behaviour.

Posted By Phil Rose I haven't had a chance to read in full all of the responses, but we had someone who did the very same thing, every day. It was properly tackled by the manager, but that is 'by the by'. The person involved was subsequently diagnosed with celiacs disease and now he is getting the proper treatment and diet he seems much less inclined to 'nod off'.

Posted By gerry d Surely someone in your organisation has to sit down with this guy as soon as possible and offer support and guidance. In our organisation HR would be the most likely to intervene. The organisation should also be able to utilise independant medical services to establish the root of the problem and determine his fitness for the job. This does not mean they wash their hands of the problem but actually provide a basis for dealing with the situation. From what I can gather from your info it is not a particularly high risk environment that he is working in, however, that does not mean he cannot harm himself or others if an incident does occur.

Posted By Larry What worries me about this is that the person is still driving. I would put it this way to your management. 1. What happens if the person goes on a course or to a meeting. If they drive to the location and not to their normal place of work, then they are "driving for work". 2. What about a common law duty of care. Your management are aware that there is a risk. To do nothing is wrong. What happens if the accident is in the staff car park. Either way if I or my family suffered a loss as a result of the above two scenarios, what would I do? Now where did I put that no win no fee telephone number?

Posted By ScotsAM I'd advise making an appointment for the employee with an occupational health professional. Isn't failure to inform DVLA of a condition of this type a breach of the law? If so it may be possible to pass information confidentially to the relevant authorities to investigate. After all how would you feel if an accident happened outwith work through turning a blind eye to this?

Posted By D H Hi - is this a wind up? Quote "it is a difficult situation on many areas but if the company continue to leave it without response, something will happen. i have no idea how the company or myself as health and safety officer would be implicated." And messy - qwerty across his forehead? If it is known there is a risk to someone or others - reasonably foreseeable so take action. Do not bury the head in the sand or you will be in trouble. Driving is a different issue - moral dilemma there. So come on jonnyjc - come clean? Or remove this person - on full pay - pending investigation. Dave

Posted By Peter F. This person puts nothing in writing, I.e. madical questions which he answers 'no' to, the company have no medical evidence that he actually suffers from any illness, yet you still allow him to sleep at his desk. Any chance of a job?

Posted By Sniffer It seems to me that everyone seems to be tiptoe'ing around this chap. Has he been given ample opportunity to admit this is a medical problem.... It would appear so. Has he done anything to address his problem..... It would appear not. Other than the risks of what could occur during the course of the day due to his episodes of nodding off, I can't understand why is this even a health and safety debate. Surely it is more a management/discipline issue. The chap should receive a warning, which should be appropriately escalated should the problem not resolve itself. Let me put a different slant on it. If you have someone in the workplace who is genuinely forgetful and they forget to do things through the course of their day that could have serious health and safety implications (ie: negligence), would we be talking about occupational psycologists etc etc. No the person in question would be disciplined. I dont see any difference in this case.

Posted By Peter F. 'I'm surprised he's got away with it' and 'it's not really his fault' conflicting to say the least. If you can diagnose his condition from the thread then surely a Dr. can if he sees him. We only know what is written, we know nothing about his life style or anything else. I must be narcoleptic on a Monday morning. This person needs to be challenged and a solution sought, even if this means he needs to see his Dr.before disciplinary action is taken.

Posted By andrea568 "I must be a narcoleptic on Monday mornings" You'd certainly know about it if you were and you're very lucky you're in a position to sit there and mock.

Posted By Jim999 Before we make 'diagnosis' a few more questions need to be asked, is this person a shift worker?, is there a possibility that they are suffering no more than sleep deficit?. Could there be an underlying welfare problem? trying to cope with stressful domestic problems can cause fatigue. In fact there are hundreds of possibilities. The quicker this person speaks to a professional in either OH or welfare the better. Failure of employees and employers to recognise they have a problem often ends with disciplinary actions being taken which are not in the interest of the company or the employee. If the employee continues to deny that there is an underlying medical problem then the company has the right to ask the employee concerned to attend an Occupational Health interview with the Company GP if for no other reason than than to see if they are fit to continue working and not a danger to themself or others.

Posted By joolz040770 In all honesty, much though reading this has been very amusing, you need to refer to Occupational Health for guidance. OH can liaise with the employee's GP and can then establish what needs to be done to move forward. They can also suggest reduced duties, reduced hours, counselling requirements etc. Their report is professionally impartial and extremely beneficial to both; and will help clarify if there is a medical condition. In my opinion, and because I have dealt with something very similar recently, OH meetings need to be set up soonest via your HR Department.

Posted By Peter F. Bob, How do you come to the conclusion, you no nothing about his life style etc. I am asthmatic and the other day I saw a man breathing heavily, I pointed and said he must be asthmatic, until my wife pointed out that he had a number on his back and was actually running in a race, didn't I look silly. I agree refer him to the OH department, don't suspend on full pay as you could find everyone falling asleep and then you have no workforce.

Posted By Robert K Lewis I should however state that it is also a disability in terms of the act and employers are under an obligation to make reasonable adjustments to the work and workplace. Dismissal is not a reasonable option in this case. Bob

Posted By Peter F. Bob. There is no evidence that he is suffering from anything, he has stated, they have nothing in writing. I would request nedical evidence before making any adjustments.

Posted By Robert K Lewis PeterF The person has however stated this condition as an issue and thus the employer is entitled to act as if it is the situation until evidence to the contrary. The employee has claimed a disability and the employer must now respond. Simply to record times and events of falling asleep as a probable precursor to some fomr of disciplinary action, if I read the runes correctly here, cannot be an option forward for any employer. I will not re-rehearse the reasons for the actions I outlined above but simply say that action is required urgently. Bob I know the issue has been raised on TV on a number of occassions recently but not enough for a person, in my view, to immediately state it as a cause of his problems. The employer does indeed need evidence if they do not think the employee is credible but they need also to act in the face of the evidence that they have ie claimed sleep apnea and a person displaying the symptoms of uncontrolled sleep apnea. The evidence they have justifies the conclusions I have set out. I also doubt that many OH doctors have sufficient understanding of the problem to give effective advice. One should be looking towards the sleep specialist consultant for real assistance in providing the required help to the employee. With effective treatment the employee will no longer be affected and adjustments to work will not be necessary. Uncontrolled sleep apnea will however determine the need for adjustment to say hours of work, type of work etc or even medical fitness to continue working but these are, as yet, a long way off.

Posted By Robert K Lewis Peter I am not precluding any medical advice - in fact it is essential if an uncontrolled sleep apnea sufferer is to continue working. BUT in the meantime one should not be knowingly encouraging such a person to drive and one needs to take some form of neutral position action to allow time for the situation to be assessed. We must recognise the serious nature of this disability and take appropriate actions in the light of this. The immediate adjustment is to take the person out of the stress of work and allow/encourage them to discuss their treatment with their specialist. All diagnosed sufferers have open access to their clinics and should be using it. If they are being economical with the truth concerning their diagnosis it will come into the open once the employer puts initial remedial action into progress. Bob