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Does child sexual abuse come in under the H&S heading
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Posted By edelbo
The recent allegations of sexual abuse of a child in a childcare facility have got me questioning as to whether sexual abuse and child protection policies should be part of a businesses H&S systems?
My feeling is that it should be included as the aim is to protect the H&S of employees and other parties that could be affected by the work activity which would include children in a childcare facility, play centre, school etc. However I could find no reference to child abuse as a hazard on the HSE or Irish HSA websites or in any of the H&S legislation.
Would appreciate any thoughts on this
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Posted By SNS
Difficult question but I think not.
Such abuses are criminal acts and outside 'work' activity. Disciplinary and HR area notwithstanding criminal.
H&S would not be involved in theft from a company by an employee, why would it be involved in other criminal activities.
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Health and safety legislation is criminal law, however not all Criminal Law is related to Occupationl Health or workplace Safety. Beware of attempting to weave the myriad societal ills into an occupational health and safety strategy - your world will become very blurred indeed.
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Posted By AHS
The beauty of health and safety is that it encompasses a plethora of subjects and child abuse should not be exempt on work premises.
People who wish to work with children should be very carefully monitored as paedophiles are drawn strongly to these professions.
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Posted By Steve M Granger
S3?, but imho would pale into insignificance against offence against the person act or sexual crime covered by Sexual Offences Act 2003.
However, may be a possibility to introduce Risk Assessment in a civil case via MHSWR (under HSWA delegation).
As far as I know there is no limit on the number of offences r variation f acts they are drawn from that a defendant may face but it would be the prudence of the prosecutor to forward only those with a significant chance of proving - otherwise it may compromise the other charges.
I think.........
Saturday Steve
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Posted By Stuff4blokes
Health and safety is part of the overall discipline or concept of risk management and for any organisation that has any form of childcare activity the safety and well-being of children must be very high on the risk management agenda.
Whether this is "led" by a H&S professional or another individual or group is a matter for the organisation themselves and will no doubt depend on many factors, not least competency in the subject. The health, safety and welfare of children is often a work activity in these organisations so HASAWA S3 is applicable in my opinion.
Of course there is more specific legislation with much greater penalties and inspection regimes attached to child welfare and care. Prosecutions would be brought under these Acts/Regs.
Finally, as most child sexual abuse is domestic then the answer in part must be NO.
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Posted By Larry
If you work in childcare then there will be policies specifically written to deal with child abuse, protection etc. There are people who have specialist qualifications, training knowledge and experience for this topic. Don't forget the definition of COMPETANCY.
Unless someone has specialist training in this field as well as H/S then its got nothing to do with H/S. We has H/S professionals should stick to our area of expertise which will be mostly focused on Regulation 19 of the MHSWR 99. Let those that have training, knowledge and experience in social work and childcare deal with their jobs. Untrained, incompetent and poor interference from our profession is, IMO unwelcome, unwarranted and will do more harm than good.
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Posted By Peter How Edelbo I would take your guidance from the HSE itself. If you go to their site and then search for "child protection" or "Sexual abuse" you will get a flavour of how they treat the subject. This link is typical (cut & paste into google) http://www.hse.gov.uk/ab...amework/hse-la-csci.pdf.Basically they try to pass it to police or social services, is my interpretation. regards Peter
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Posted By martinw
When carrying out H&S visits to funded educational providers the LSC do ask about whether the organisation has policies and procedures relating to this, whether people have had the appropriate training where relevant - children or vulnerable adults in the organisation. However, once the answer is yes, it is not further evaluated. Others have the expertise to deal with this and the competence mention previously is extremely accurate. I asked a member of the Met Police child protection group who is a friend if he would be willing to come to talk to the LSC London regional health and safety team regarding safeguarding, and his response was that once he became involved, the safeguarding had effectively failed - fair point.
This is on the verge of health and safety, and unless you have had the appropriate training and experience, the consequences of involvement with a victim without knowing the damage you could cause, and any prosecution you could potentially ruin, make me feel that it would be unwise in the extreme to get involved from a health and safety viewpoint. No high horse stance, merely stating the obvious. I have not had the appropriate training but know who to call should the situation arise, which is appropriate IMHO.
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Posted By D. Hilton
I would suggest a resounding NO!!!!
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Posted By martinw
edelbo
don't forget that the Independent Safeguarding Authority are in place now, which means that anyone who works in a 'regulated' or 'controlled' role - which depends on the intensity of contact when working in an environment involving children or vulnerable adults - has to be registered with the ISA. Employers break the law if they do not carry out pre-employment checks in individuals, employees break the law if they apply for a job which they are barred from applying for or if they are offered and take the role. Presume enhanced CRB checks as the norm.
OFSTED still have a role in this during their inspections, so you can look at their website for inspection reports. Have a look on Teachernet and type in safeguarding for an idea of what is factored in within the educational sector.
A lot of this comes from the child murders in Soham apprently, and the reaction following those events. Putting it in perspective, are topics such as rape and murder anything remotely to do with health and safety?
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Posted By edelbo
Thanks for all the responses. Sometimes its hard to know where to draw the line with H&S. Because I had mentioned child protection in a customers risk assessment and recommended that they draw up a child protection policy, they sent it to me for review. Hence the initial question.
Edel
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Posted By D. Hilton
More a HR issue in my opinion
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Posted By Lee Mac
Edelbo
I would say yes as we are to protect those who may be affected by work activities (mentioned previously).
In my field (construction) when acting on behalf of a client on construction projects that are on school/nursery based environments I request that all personnel who work on a regular basis on the project undergo screening prior to entering the premises- this is from the Designers to contractors to subcontractors.
Over the years this procedure has proved its worth and the client has expressed its satisfaction with this approach, so much so, that it has adopted this on other projects where we are not involved.
Even if child sexual abuse does not be prosecuted under H&S legislation there is the need to ensure we adopt a common sense approach when working with/ in close proximity to children.
Regards
Lee
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Posted By Peter F.
Of course child sex abuse doesn't come under H&S,
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Posted By Bob Youel
A good team will consist of all competent people who can sensibly input and make the process valuable and that includes the appropriate type of H&S professional as I advocate that the area is a H&S subject as is all other work related areas
Having worked in the sector myself time and time again I have come across risk assessments, systems etc that were not suitable and sufficient and that were obviously put together from a very bias, short signteness and ill trained point of view
The problem we [H&S professionals] have is that such areas are jealously guarded and people feel threatened if those that are seen as being outsiders become involved especially so [In my personal opinion] where the H&S adviser adheres to their professional code of conduct!
Working together should [and does] bring benefits for all
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Posted By clairel
I think H&S can be applied to almost anything but the question is really what 'should' it be applied to.
My opinion is that it shouldn't apply to child sexual abuse (or for that matter abuse of any vulnerable person - elderly, mentally ill etc)
The reason for me is that there is far more effective and relevant legisaltion in place to deal with that sort of thing.
It's the same as road traffic accidents at work. Yes you could apply the HSWA but the road traffic legislation is far more appropriate.
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Posted By water67.
LA Social work H&S. There are policies and procedures in place including regular "disclosures" checks on staff.. no one would be allowed to work with children without a disclosure being made to the police. No way should this be H&S I/we do not have the skills, training etc. to venture into this area. Suggest you think more carefully before including comments on such areas in reports.
Cheers.
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Posted By Steve M Granger
seems to me as if this is the cart before the horse, shouldn't the question be;
'should child welfare in a workplace (because that is what is described in the term childcare facility) be considered as a suitable risk to ensure H&S procedures are in place'
imho - yes, just as would other vulnerable persons who are under the care of people at work.
Regarding who and what is done is like any other safety matter - in some cases we just sit back and check that it is being done, sometimes be proactive and delegate to competent manager/ other times just absorb the knowledge that safety processes are in place and working.
But I think to cut out selective bits of H&S for fear of trading on tiny toes is rather presumptuous.
Some of the comments above seem to think that process does not apply because children are a special case and this is a sensitive issue.
If anything the DoC goes up in terms of integrated Safety Management Systems and appropriate cross reference to SSW's (including CRB checks)is essential.
I am not a prosecutor, but I would not like anyone to assume that they have a right to remove the crown authority to invoke appropriate legislation as they see fit.
Neither do I think it helpful to limit rational thought on the application of civil law (using H&S systems if they are available) to pursue negligence in such cases.
Discuss.....
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Posted By Simon Shaw
As you would imagine, there is a requirement for schools to have adequate procedures in place for child protection.
I believe that it comes under the Education Act 2002.
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Posted By Pete48 The answer to your question is no. Why change what is already in place? This link will give you the latest report from those with the duty to regulate and inspect facilities and services in this area of management controls. http://www.safeguardingchildren.org.uk/I doubt that including it in OHS would serve any useful purpose or indeed be a prudent move for any party involved.
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Posted By martinw
Steve M Granger
I appreciate your point but it depends on your starting position and the cause for concerns. All work activities have H&S input and controls to some degree, including child welfare - but from a purely H&S point of view I would say that what is already in place legally is enough to protect basic welfare in terms of physical safety, slips and trips etc., and screening of those working there also is already in place.
What if the H&S controls are breached and a child's welfare is not protected? Depending on the nature of the breach of welfare depends on who you call. If a child is injured due to the state of the premises or because inspections have not taken place and systems are not working, then call the H&S person.
Otherwise, if the nature of the situation is deliberate harm to a child, I would not expect the H&S person to get a call, or to even be involved. It has to be proportionate and measured in each case, but to imply that H&S should be involved in some way in all child welfare situations is as much a blanket approach as others saying that it should not. I doubt that anyone called the H&S dept of the local authority regarding the ongoing investigation in the nursery in Plymouth, although there may be H&S implications as a result.
In my opinion.
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Posted By rjhills
No.
Not unless you want all H&S managers treated as the two PCs were last week while childminding their friends children under a quite appropriate arrangement.
Yet again we seem to be attempting to address social ills with H&S legislation.
As may be known, the government crack down on sex offenders followed the even hastier crack doen on legal gun users after a nutter killed people even though he had been "vetted" by loval police, a la Ian Huntley..who also was "vetted" by his employers.
Now we are all expected to be on a child protection list even if we pass a child in the street!!!
Please stick to real H&Safety, as there is enough to do without dreaming up more and more exotic things for the poor overworked, (and sometimes little listened to) health and safety professional to do.
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Posted By Ken Taylor
It can be an issue to be taken into account by those H&S practitioners working in school or child care environments - particularly in the provision of guidance and involvement with safety policies and risk assessments for work activities involving contact with children such as school trips.
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Posted By Larry
H/S types have their uses in giving advice on safety tips and issues associated with playgrounds, school trips, care homes, etc etc.
BUT. When it comes to child abuse, NO, down Tiger! Its got nout to do with us or HR for that matter. Let he who is trained and competent do their task. Its a very upsetting, difficult and slow process which needs doing right first time from the start. It takes skill, knowledge and a vast amount of experience. The last thing anyone needs is "Mr Tweed jacket" with leather elbow patches and a clip board, barging in and doing more harm than good.
I shall now place my "mark 4" safety helmet "complete with built in pencil holder" upon my head and await the gasps of shock, horror and etc's from some of my fellow peers.
Night night.
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Posted By Ken Taylor
Where the subject arises as part of the employer's business, there need to be relevant policies and procedures and risks to children need to be assessed. Whilst these will not be within the normal remit of the H&S practitioner, he/she will need to be aware of them, operate in accordance with them and may come across related issues during the course of H&S auditing/inspecting. It will also be important to ensure that H&S policies, procedures, recommendations, etc are in accord with child protection requirements. We need to be aware of the content, nature, requirements of the jobs of those for which we have a H&S duty in order to discharge our own duties properly. As to whether (as asked) such policies should be part of the H&S system, this will be a matter for the employer to decide - but they aren't normally found in that area. Wherever placed organisationally, they certainly need to be operated, enforced and audited by competent persons.
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Posted By Peter F.
This should be left to the professionals who deal or don't as the case may be. To suggest it should be put on a risk assessment is nonsense. What would you put for a school trip, 'may be abused' the control measures are already in place and in some cases are not working.
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Posted By Sally
On a school trip risk assessment I would expect to see that no non-crb adults are allowed to be alone with children, asked to take groups to the toilet etc, during times of remote supervision eg visit to town pupils to stay in groups in of three or more, proper procedures for dealing with children who need assistance with personal needs etc all of which come under the heading of child protection. Oh and all adults including parent helpers to be aware of what to do if a child makes a 'disclosure'
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Posted By juterig
It is quite tempting to marry the issue of child sexual abuse under the health and safety heading however, this is an issue under crimal heading.
Jude Igundunase
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Posted By Nicholas Sutcliffe
if stress comes under our umbrella then surely this subject should also.
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Posted By Peter F.
On what grounds?
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Posted By Phizzle
SERIOUSLY?
It may be a consideration under general good management but a H&S issue? No.
HASAWA is all about the workplace. Non-employees are protected by s.3 but surely this is only if they are affected by an employers 'undertaking' - i.e. work related hazards and risks.
This is backed up by many civil law cases where an employer is not held accountable if an employee is acting "outside the scope of their employment" which surely the subject in question is.
Thnigs like stress are incomparible as they are directly linked with the workplace or work itself. There's enough law covering sexual abuse before throwing H&S into the mix.
Crikey, don't know about you but I've got enough on my plate!!
Ian
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Posted By Jim Tassell (2)
It's perhaps helpful to take a slightly different viewpoint from some of you above. Set aside the legalities (please!) and view the question from the "top of the Clapham Omnibus" perspective. Or, what would Joe Public think? I suggest that they would expect a business to have joined up processes. So, in a school, they would expect there to be a sensible and clearly understood interface between Section 3 and child protection regardless of whether you start on the H&S side or the child protection side. There is no harm, and probably a lot of good, in H&S procedures, RAs etc. making clear the interface.
But we're missing another point as well. Child protection is itself developing into protection of all vulnerable groups (adults with learning difficulties, grannies with Alzheimers etc. etc.) Do we read the HSW Act in the same way for these as well? I suggest that the honest answer is " err, no". We do take account of vulnerable groups in the likes of retailing. We certainly get involved in work placements for adults with learning difficulties. Let's be consistent.
Finally, one of the commentators above mentioned risk management. Based on a recent (thankfully unreported) case in a voluntary context of my knowledge, anyone who has any risk management responsibility outside H&S must, must have this topic on his/her radar as the press interest and potential reputational damage could be huge.
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Posted By martinw
Sorry Jim, I disagree a bit. The Protection of Vulnerable Adults (POVA) legislation was instituted back in 2004, so child protection legislation is hardly morphing to include vulnerable adults. This legislation is now largely inculculated to the vetting and barring scheme, which again is ongoing development rather than a sea change.
Those who work with 'grannies with alzheimers' do consider S3 and are required to do so within their training and practice.
Martin
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Posted By Jim Tassell (2)
Martin,
My point exactly. If we apply S3 to "grannies with Alzheimers" etc. why do we run from applying it to another vulnerable group?
I take your point re date of legislation but I'm reflecting the usual slow development of awareness of it; and is it really the final word??
Jim
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Posted By martinw
Understood. But my opinion is that it may not be the best route for H&S professionals to undertake what may be medical or social care duties. Horses for courses.
And as for being the final word, who knows? Wait for the next Soham or Baby P to see what the next knee jerk legislation will be.
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Posted By Jez Corfield
No - child protection might come under the overall risk management framework within a business, but that doesnt mean it is H&S.
Depending on the type and size of business, it may be that the H&S person also looks after risk management, but there are many aspects of risk management that are not H&S related, child protection is one of them.
I would argue that H&S people do not have the competency to do anything with childcare, other than basic 'get CRB check/supervision' type comments in working arrangements. This may be appropriate for businesses that dont look after children but that might come into contact with them.
Any organisation that actually looks after children should have childcare/social care professionals on the books who are better placed to oversee childcare arrangements.
Jez
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Posted By Phizzle
Jez,
Good point well put.
Ian
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Posted By Jim Tassell (2)
Martin, Jez
I'm not arguing for H&S professionals taking on any work or responsibility of other care or education professional, simply that businesses, schools, care providers etc. must be careful to ensure that H&S seemlessly dovetails with those other professions, ie no cracks for care to fall through.
Since my post above, I'm reminded of the recent case of Porter (EWCA Crim 1271 (19 May 2008)) and I think that the HSE has already given us a de-facto answer - keeping away is not an option, even though they lost this sad case on appeal. Compare also their occasional forays into clinical negligence. It's at the overlaps between H&S and other disciplines that we can perhaps be caught out by differences in interpretation. Joined up policy and procedures should minimise this.
Jim
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Does child sexual abuse come in under the H&S heading
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