This may come across as a strange opening, considering that we have been in full H&S mode for almost 22 years (in the oil and gas business anyway, and mainly after Piper-Alpha). Being a safety professional for almost 15 of those years, I have seen HSE scorned, mocked, and ridiculed, my point in question is this, how can we achieve a culture where HSE will eventually be appraised, accepted, and functional under it's own steam. My interest was prodded when my son arrived back from his first day of work experience, and had undergone the HSE induction. Obviously he knows I am an HSE professional, and he did choose his words carefully when he explained that the worst part of the day was getting swamped in HSE, his exact words were, Dad we were treated like idiots during the whole induction, if that is what HSE is like I would change my job. Now I would have thought that introducing a level of HSE knowledge at school would have been a good thing, and I know my son is a one off, but that was the general opinion of his work experience colleagues too, it may have been the workplace rules, or it may have been the HSE representative who delivered the induction, there are several variables to consider, but one that remains constant is there is a natural human aversion to be told what we should do, when we should do it, and how by rational, level headed people who are lateral thinkers, otherwise known as people who can and will use their common sense. When my son mentioned that they were treated like children, I think he hit the nail on the head. HSE has come about, and "exists" because there is a very small proportion of people who will not, and cannot take responsibility for their own mistakes, and who will always look to blame "the system". Unfortunately constructive and progressive HSE processes are held back because HSE professionals have to cater for this type of person hence the use of exists in inverted commas. I may have answered my own thoughts, but would be interested to hear others. cheers Captain S

In my experience, in such a competitive (read:overly-capatalist!) environment, where everyone is looking to squeeze the pennies, H&S will always be hard to get the 'buy-in' from managers, senior or not, because they like finance people who can say "oh, I saved you £5,000 yesterday" or the supplier, who says "we can reduce your contract cost by 25%", then us H&S people come along and say "well, if we do this - which will cost £2,500 today, we may well save a life tomorrow" - this of course doesn't sit with their understanding of economics, and thus H&S gets seen as a thorn in the organisation's side, rather than a help. I also think the media has a large portion of blame (and it doesn't help with the Tories last year practically arguing to repeal H&S laws), however within an organisation, if the top-level don't filter down the importance and usefulness of H&S, then the culture is there - but it's a negative one. I've found that my interaction with staff has been positive, but working in manufacturing (both food and non-food) despite all the messages about how H&S is top priority, it's ALWAYS production - get the stuff out the door, no matter what! So whilst I have good relationships, when you ask someone nicely to take that pallet truck out of the walkway that's just been dumped there (because an alarm went off on a line and that's a higher priority than someone's potentially broken legs) it's seen as a burden, and sometimes a rolled-eyes reply! This to me, then, shows that their supervisors aren't making a positive culture, nor their manager, nor the senior manager and so on. So ultimately, I find that £$ is the big driver of a "bad" (or in fairness, lazy) cultures to H&S. This, of course, doesn't get me onto poor policies, good-but-not-enacted policies, strange procedures, beaurocracy....but none of us have all day! :)

I completely disagree with that statement. H&S legislation and standards came about becuase factories were killing and maiming in alarming numbers due to unsafe working conditions and working practices. Not becuase people weren;t taking resposibilities for themselves. However, the problem we have today is that industry has changed and to cover all aspects of industry we have developed legislation that COULD be interpreted and applied in such a stringent fashion that it becomes impossible to actually carry out work. Coupled with changes in soceiety where someone is expected to be held accountable for absolutely everything, the insurance companies have also jumped on this bandwagon. The result is that bad decisons are taken, many businesses and professionsal have become risk averse and as a result H&S as whole isn no longer taken seriously. Look at the argumens on here.Many of which are about what lengths people should go to to control risk. If we can't agree what level should go to then ho can the man in the street? I believe H&S is in a dreadful situation (not just reputation but how H&S is implemented) at the moment and something does need to be done. This backlash from society was inevitable. I frequently feel ashamed to part of this industry. Not becuase I don't believe in H&S, of course I do, but because I think it has lost it's way and because there are so many practicing professionals that I inherently disagree with their approach. The profession as whole comes across as jobsworths. The profesion as a whole aren't jobsworths but that is how we come across. I don't even tell people what I do for a living becuase of the backlash I get. The result being that the other night I had to listen in silence to some aquaintances slating H&S and to be honest I couldn't disagree with much of what they were saying. H&S is a good thing but I do think it has lost it's way and become a subject of ridicule accordingly. I don't know what the solution is but I do know that something needs to be done By the way when we talk about a backlash from H&S, I have it on good authority that Bewerely Park no longer run caving trips. Is that what we really want? To prevent kids going on adventure holidays with their school? Just becuase all risk can't be eliminated. Has that done the reputation of H&S any good? Is it any wonder that my outdoor friends currently think H&S is ridiculous? Right now I quite often think H&S ridiculous and I'm a H&S professional! Figure that out!!!

If pushed I say I'm an industrial consultant but most of the time I just mutter somethig about not talking about it. Isn't that sad. Maybe I should tell people I'm a pole dancer, it may be a bit more entertaining!!!

Clairel: Some of those views were spooky as they are my sentiments exactly. I am fortunate enough to allow myself the privilege of naming myself a project manager. I agree in the why HSE legislation came about, Piper Alpha changed the offshore and onshore oil industry dramatically. My opening point was that HSE is basically treading water, and not advancing. We have tried many methods to be progressive, starting off with a "no blame culture", award schemes, and even full on IOSH-MS training for line managers, yet still progress is like wading through mud, and the small number of people I am refering to, will still expend more energy in breaking the HSE-MS in place than they ever would working with it.

Clairel I think you hit the nail on the head (with a rubber hammer, of course!) and I agree with you completely on what our profession has become. Your comment about the way the media reports on H&S is spot on, and IOSH in my opinion should be doing just as much to root out the practitioners whose misguided advice creates these stories as they do to respond to media reports. As for what needs to be done to improve our profession, that is the million dollar question. I think the government is right to review H&S and it will be interesting to see the outcome. I tell people I save lives for a living, it's certainly more glamorous than saying I'm a H&S advisor. I don't think I could get away with claiming to be a pole dancer though!

Today there is a story running on the BBC news website about some flooding in the south of France. In the usual disclaimer at the end of the web page there is the following wording 'At no time should you endanger yourself or others, take any unnecessary risks or infringe any laws.' Oh really!! - this just sums up the current over reation of many safety geeks/organisations that they even felt the need (to cover their rear ends) to add the diclaimer.

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On the training front - how many cringe worthy safety induction days have you attended or had to present on behalf of your company. Its no wonder many people think H&S is a joke. ________________ To my mind if the HSE had the resources, they need to take more PERSONAL prosecutions to Court when it becomes clear that individuals have not acted reasonably and in line with their employers reasonable efforts to manage health and safety. With time this might go some way to changing the claims culture, to make people realise that they have a personal responsibility as well.

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What do I say to people who ask me what I do - I no longer say H&S thats for sure. I'm a design engineer now

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Yes I know this response is posted on 2 discussions - but think its fits into both.

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1. Ray's observation 'I'm sure HR people have a similar problem with political correctness at work' was more true prior to September 2009, than it is now. At their conference last year, the CIPD adopted a radically new proces of professional accreditation, argubably the greatest overall in any profession whose business involves day-to-day interaction with people, in the past century. Well worth examining to address the issue raised. 2. A simple but difficult way of addressing the issue raised is comparable to that adopted by the CIPD, namely redesigning the NEBOSH Certificate and Diploma syllabi to enable safety professionals to gather reliable valid evidence about human behaviour and to evaluate it scientifically. It might take a decade or even two but could put all qualified OSH practitioners, not only IOSH members, on a par with scientifically trained professionals, such as those on the Health Professions Council registers. 3. Most professions in the UK at present feel unappreciated. Even those like actuaries whose median earning levels are much higher than those of safety/health professionals but commonly experience dismay in the face of tough political and diplomatic aspects of their work which their current profesional formation is not designed to prepare them for.

A very interesting and thought provoking thread indeed. I can count on one hand (with fingers to spare) the amount of people that I have encountered over the years who have held their hands up to mistakes thay have made. It is a very noble quality. The world would be a much better place if more people could this...but they don't sadly. Two words spring to my mind, two words that I always keep at the forefront of what I do. Manage & Sensible. To manage something you don't require a job title or status or even a pay rise. To manage is a human thought process and act. Being sensible is not always easy but it is always right. Having worked chiefly in the construction and power generation industries I am used to a good level of health and safety management in spite of the remarks above. I can imagine some industries and people leave a lot to be desired.

I don't think I agree, really, at least, not with all of it. I still work in an organisation where the basics often aren't right, and in an industry where people are hurt and even killed needlessly. Maybe it's different in high reliability organisations like utilities and chemical processing, but not where I work. And you really do have to understand what the media is; it is not any kind of mirror of society; how many people writing on this forum have ever spoken to a journalist? Where do you think they get their 'sinsight' inot society from when almost all of them live and work in central london? They don't, they're just making it up, and there is a great deal of evidence that that's true. The Glasgow Media Studies group has pubilshed some excellent pieces on the Elf 'n'safety stories everybody believes; many, many of them are not even remotely accurate. Where I live you could hear the bang from Flixborough, loud enough to make people who'd lived through World War II to dive into garden sheds and take their grand-kids with them. And only two years ago I was on a train going through Hertfordshire and the Buncefield fire filled the sky to the west. They're high reliability industries, apparently. If your son felt partonised, the work experience people need better trainers, being safe doesn't have to involve being talked down to, John

Scarlet, You've used the "HSE" phrase again in a completely different context than is normally meant. For clarification, my understanding is HSE usually means the Health & Safety Executive i.e. the public body responsible for legal enforcement whose duties include prosecution of businesses that kill and injure people. From the context of the above, you seem to mean the businesses own appointed internal Health & Safety Adviser (not sure what the "E" stands for though). Sorry for being stupid, but please clarify who you mean as it radically alters my understanding of what you are saying. Thanks.

AS CS has stated other posters have not had a problem in interpreting this?

CS, whilst I can see that you have used your son's experience to raise an interesting discussion I would like to point out that if your son was on a work experience programme it highly likely that the staff at the employer have no experience of teaching young children. In fact they may have approached them like children because they thought that was the right thing to do? The content may have been adjusted and the delivery method may not have suited the audience. As to your question about how to progress. I worked in the high hazard sectors for decades before Piper Alpha and I can assure you that in my experience human behaviour and H&S was an integral part of daily working life long before that accident. So we have been seeking the holy grail of sensible H&S for many years longer than Piper Alpha. Maybe we got close at some points but then along came an accident and whoops no we haven't found it. Piper Alpha actually introduced a whole welter of additional controls and more importantly loads more paper into daily systems that in the early days following the report recommendations almost paralysed certain parts of the industry. I had to attend a 4 hour training course at each of four separate, but adjacent and similar hazard profile terminals, operated by 4 different companies in order to become a permit signatory in each! So rules, regulations, paper and perceived restrictions on competent people are nothing new really. I mention this to illustrate that lessons only get learned by those who are directly affected by the adverse outcomes; organisations never learn perhaps because they have to take risks to survive? Thus we have the expressed embarrassment by some individuals today at being involved with H&S for example as they have felt the consequences directly and on the other hand a company like BP who find themselves once again in the spotlight. There will always be a debate about whether there is too much or too little control and by whom. For me, those who clamour for more are often in situations where understanding of or compliance to existing codes and best practice are not common; on the other hand those who advocate better understanding and consistent enforcement of fewer, more easily understood rules may have the better option. So the holy grail will always remain a distance away. Too much freedom to act "on the hop" kills people and too much pointless paper can also kill people although it is probably the lesser of two evils if I had to choose. Safety professionals cannot find the answer to sensible safety on their own despite what many modern employers seem to think. It will take team work across all the disciplines and maybe a rethink on how to get the best use from safety professionals in the workplace is one way we progress. After all we are living through the first generation of the "safety bod", rather than the "safety officer", as an explicit and separately identifiable management activity are we not? Thus one might be led to suggest that the impact of this arrival is in some way a contributory cause of the present situation--if one wanted to prompt further debate that is. p48

*cough* have you ever looked at any health and safety information that ISN'T from the UK? You step outside of the UK and HSE = Health, Safety & Environment and I would say THAT is the context in which it is "normally meant" Surely you didn't think all of the US, Australian, etc HSE information out there was referring to a UK government body did you? -Dave

Again I have read the thread with great interest, How many of you who contribute work in the not for profit industry....... where you conduct the business of injury and loss prevention because of a passion for keeping your fellow man alive? In which case getting to the real issues here would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. The laws and regulations are not to blame and "as any fule no" they need to be all encompassing so as not to exclude a piece of machinery, or type of worker, or premisis etc. etc. etc. from being protected. The problem I feel also does not lie with the inspectors tasked with trying to enforce the Laws and Regulations...... I have met and discussed many issues with my local inspectors and find them to be noting but helpful and provide good guidance on the Laws and Regulations, furthermore they try to be as accommodating to the employer as they can. Indeed they have taken architects to construction sites and effectivly said "no, you put that feature up there safely .. because these guys (the contractors) can't". The problem I feel, is interpreting these laws and regulations to present to the employer to assist him in conducting his business in a cost effective and safe manner. It has become an entire industry! I am a poacher turned gamekeeper - I stick to my sphere of industry and I pass questions outside my sphere to my network of knowledgeable Individuals who may be able to assist. Perhaps to realy benefit industry in UKPLC we should look no further than ourselves and our sphere of certain knowledge and experience................ try a rifle instead of a blunderbus............... a consensus to specialise and pool knowledge (after all a collection of puddles in one place is a lake) will start to put a stop to the "elf n saffety innit?" nonsence and bring some cred back to protecting the health and safety of the employer, the employee, the public, and UKPLC.

Sorry Farrell, I have to disagree.......Elgar's Nimrod would be much more appropriate ;-)

We are all in this occupation of health and safety because we want to make a difference, and have a safe environment to work, so at the end of the working day everyone goes home to their families.

I'm with Clairel on this one Its a job, it pays the mortgage and maintenance, lets me have a beer or 2 at the weekend. People can take or leave the advice/service we give - I'm not personally worried about the risk of suffering an industrial injury or work related ill health. Sad but true

Thank you to Farrell, terry556 and Steven n. It is a relief to know that not everyone in the profession is totally disillusioned. As for myself, I do a lot of work with heavy horse charities and my role is very much one of promoting public contact with these magnificent (but endangered) animals and looking at ‘how can we do this safely’ rather than ‘we cannot do this’. Very, very rewarding.