Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
stephenjs  
#1 Posted : 01 November 2011 11:46:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
stephenjs

Hi Guys, I have been getting some feedback from my local clients on the HSE's potential to charge for visits and I would ask everyone to help me with the thinking behind this: We already pay tax for this organisation and so is it, in your opinion:

*The need to save money and therefore charge for visits
*The need to make a profit so we can keep the Inspectors employed
*The right to charge for visits because of the expertise of the inspectors
*The need to be able to penalise bad organisatuions and one way is through charging for visits

Your thoughts would be most welcome and please feel free to add more reasons, but please be realistic in their reasoning

Have a great Tuesday

Stephen
Ron Hunter  
#2 Posted : 01 November 2011 12:39:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Useful reference:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd235.htm

This is happening because the Government of the day wants it - the HSE have to do as they are told. The idealogy is that those who don't comply have to pay (for the issue of Notices, formal letters, follow-up visits etc.) Best of luck to the HSE in trying to balance the books on potential income via the bureacracy required to administer this and chaseup thosewho choose not to pay.
stillp  
#3 Posted : 01 November 2011 13:50:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
stillp

As I understand it, they are not planning to charge for visits, but for any follow-up activity. (Letters, notices, repeat visits...).
They've had a 30% cut in their budget, and it seems reasonable that those who need enforcement action should pay a higher proportion than the general taxpayer.

What worries me is that it will stop companies asking HSE for advice.
PH2  
#4 Posted : 01 November 2011 15:24:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PH2

There is an interesting article about this topic in this month's SHP.

Birchall31628  
#5 Posted : 01 November 2011 16:11:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Birchall31628

You could also argue that there could be in-consistencies regionally in the Inspector's interpretation of the law and best practice.
I personally think it's not such a bad idea as if you are on top of your game and know your industry standards then any letter from the enforcing authority would be greatly received (as it justifies what you have been pushing for).
I am often let down with personnel on site not doing what they have been trained to do and not taking responsibility. Maybe they should extend such charges to employees if they think it's blatantly obvious.
farmsafety  
#6 Posted : 01 November 2011 17:15:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
farmsafety

As has already been said, this is because the Coalition Government has demanded that HSE recover costs in the effort to reduce it's public funding requirement. It is not welcomed by HSE itself and is sure to be a big headache to administer. The inspectors know it will not be liked by industry and will only increase hostility to them. Appeals will go through the roof! Time management for them will increasingly be monitored by efforts to generate income. The alternative will be further shrinking of the organisation if no further public funding is granted. Only time will tell if this strategy is achievable.
Meanwhile, this has raised the status of all health and safety professionals overnight. This is the opportunity to prove your worth by saving your business from any and such charges. Good and positive health and safety management is readily recognisable by an HSE inspector! You are less likely to get visited if no infringements are likely to be unearthed. Thorough in-house accident investigations will require less time by an inspector to follow through. Again, speedy remedial action will require less of an inspector's time. Conversely, it will be very embarrassing if, and when, you are called before your MD to explain why a 'material defect' was never identified and rectified, such that it has now possibly cost them a £750 letter!
pete48  
#7 Posted : 01 November 2011 17:34:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

It is going to happen perhaps as soon as April 2012. The recent consultation has been about how best to achieve it. The accompanying impact assessment contains lots of useful data including what HMG sees as the problem that needs solving and the objectives and intended effects.
http://consultations.hse.../Impact%20Assessment.pdf
The text copied below is taken from that assessment document.
The reason given for the changes is 'Regulatory work relating to workplace health and safety is at present largely funded by the taxpayer via Government, rather than by those who create the need for such work by operating outside the law.'
The objectives are also clearly stated in the assessment as:
to continue to provide protection for workers and society from the effects of work activities, while shifting some of the cost burden from the taxpayer to those businesses that are found to be in material breach of the law; and those that operate onshore boreholes;
- to improve health and safety standards, by increasing the incentive to improve for those who do not comply with health and safety legislation;
- to provide a level playing field for dutyholders that comply with the law, making it less likely that they will be undercut by those who lower their costs by not doing so.

Nothing in there about most items on your list.
The need to save money would apply whether change is made or not.
These proposals do not allow the HSE to make a profit from intervention. It is cost recovery not profit making.
The expertise of the Inspectors is only relevant in respect of what might be considered a reasonable commercial rate.
There will be no charge for visits. Cost recovery starts at the point where a material breach is found. Examples are given in the consultation document that clearly shows the differences in expected action by Inspectors. Far from the draconian, money making approaches suggested by some

My opinion is that this is long overdue and is more likely to improve general standards of workplace H&S than not. Problems there will be but then what new measures are ever without teething problems?

p48
Graham Bullough  
#8 Posted : 01 November 2011 18:38:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

A crucial issue in this matter surely is what situations constitute material, alias significant, breaches of the law enforced by HSE. From a quick skim through the 50+ page document cited above by pete48 I couldn't readily find any clear examples or definitions, but perhaps I was skimming too fast.

Also, as farmsafety suggests, the forthcoming charging system might well raise the status of OS&H professionals among employers - and also self-employed people - involved in work with significant risks. Time will tell.
stephenjs  
#9 Posted : 01 November 2011 18:54:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
stephenjs

Thanks for the input, really good as usual.

My own opinion is that the charging wil start as soon as a material breach is found, whther in the first five yards onsite or through other channels. I know this is harsh but in other Gov Depts targets are rife and my fear is that this will raise its head in this dept. I really do hope that I am proved wrong

Stephen
RayRapp  
#10 Posted : 01 November 2011 19:35:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

When I first got involved in the h&s industry we were taught about the tripartite system ie the regulator, employer and employee's representatives. The premise was that the regulator was an advisory body first and foremost, and an enforcement authority second. This new initiative appears to tip the scales in favour of enforcement as opposed to advice.

The pay for intervention principle is fairly sound - if you don't run your business safely then you will pay for it. I also take the view that far too many employers escape prosecution and are penalised only with an EN. Prosecution is time consuming and expensive, moreover prosecutions by the regulators have been on a steady decline over the last decade or so. Therefore pay for intervention could be seen as pseudo fixed penalty fine as well as one step away from a prosecution.

I really believe it is about time apathetic and amoral employers paid the penalty for their lack of health and safety awareness. I really don't care how sanctions are applied as long as they are effective, I will have no sympathy for those who complain. Okay, the Devil is in the detail. Therefore I hope enforcement officers are sensible, consistent and proportionate in how they apply this pay for intervention initiative. The only shadow I can see is with the coincidence of the HSE's 30% cut in budget - which does leave a nasty taste in the mouth.
pete48  
#11 Posted : 01 November 2011 19:53:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

Graham et al, my apologies. The examples are at the end of the consultation document. Appendix 3 Page 23 et seq. On re-reading my post I can see I did lead readers to believe I was talking about the impact assessment. I hope you have not suffered undue eye strain in reading all of the impact assessment :-)

http://consultations.hse...393957.1/pdf/-/CD235.pdf

p48
pete48  
#12 Posted : 01 November 2011 20:20:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

Stephen,
The proposals are quite clear about the start and stop point of fee for intervention. See para 2.1.6 and 2.1.8 of the consultation document referenced in my previous post. Section 4.12 outlines what a dutyholder may have to pay for.

I wonder whether it is the fact that many companies today are in breach of duty and if visited fear that they would likely find themselves with fee for intervention process invoked and it is this that is concerning many. Simple opportunity to fill the exchequers coffers type of comment maybe?
However, in the examples given there is one that relates to the HASAW poster not being displayed. A material breach but the example goes on to state that, subject to no other matters being found, then such a breach could be dealt with verbally as it does not pose additional risk to employees or members of the public. No cost charge would be made in such a matter.
Common sense clearly integrated into the proposals and an indication that the HSE recognise the need for a measured approach?

p48
Clairel  
#13 Posted : 02 November 2011 10:24:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

I'm quite suprised by the hang em high attitude expressed here really. All businesses are breaking the law in various different ways. And I do mean all. Inspectors have discretion and I wonder how much discretion will change.

Take the example of the bespoke guarding on the machine in the consultation doc. Someone had done their best to guard a machine but the inspector feels more could be done. Is that fair. Think how many old machines there are still in service in this country that have had to have guards retrofitted, that are difficult to guard and for which there is no absolute guarding standard. Fair to fine them? One inspector may think it could be guarded better another may disagree. Don't even get me started on the lack of competency of many inspectors.

I am also shocked that this fee applies to advice not just enforcement. That pretty much means either the HSE will stop giving as much written advice to employers (which in my opinion was very valuable) or that a considerable number of businesses will be charged.

It's all very well to say that employers that break the law deserve what they get but the reality is that most employers aren't deliberately breaking the law. Ignorance is no excuse maybe but wow what a hard line to take. The financial penalty will hit hardest the SME's, the ones that are struggling to survive, that can;t necessarily afford the competent advice and may be doing the best they can. For the big companies that should know better the fine will be water off a ducks back. A drop in the ocean. This fine will hit those struggling the most not the big boys deliberately flouting the law.

On a final note an inspector said recently on the subject that they wanted to be in a job in years to come and so if that meant giving out fines then so be it. No compassion for the businesses at all, no sense of responsibility coming with that power. Just protecting their own job. I think that's a scary thought.
RayRapp  
#14 Posted : 02 November 2011 11:10:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

'It's all very well to say that employers that break the law deserve what they get but the reality is that most employers aren't deliberately breaking the law. Ignorance is no excuse maybe but wow what a hard line to take.'

Claire, as a consultant you will be acutely aware that many employers are disregarding the law, some as a result of ignorance, but in many cases it is apathy and wilful disregard. Most of these only come to light when there is a serious accident - through prosecution. Too late for the poor soul who has been seriously injured or worse. Yes, I agree it will hit SMEs the hardest, but most large organisations do their best to ensure compliance, whereas the same cannot be said for SMEs.

If pay for intervention results in driving up standards by ensuring those that don't run their businesses properly are penalised, then it must be good for the protection of workers. Complying with health and safety laws should not be seen as a 'nice to do' - but a legal requirement. Employers that fall foul of the HRMC are not treated with any mercy, why should it be so different for h&s laws?
Clairel  
#15 Posted : 02 November 2011 11:13:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

RayRapp wrote:

but most large organisations do their best to ensure compliance, whereas the same cannot be said for SMEs.



No I don't agree with that statement Ray.

You can't compare tax law to H&S law; H&S law is far more complex.
RayRapp  
#16 Posted : 02 November 2011 12:05:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I'm not comparing the two like for like, but the principle of non-compliance. True, some h&s laws can be quite complex...but most are quite basic and simple to understand.
Clairel  
#17 Posted : 02 November 2011 12:49:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

It's not that H&S law is complex but it's 'greyness' (for want of a better word) requires much more interpretation.
Graham Bullough  
#18 Posted : 02 November 2011 13:08:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Pete48 - thanks for pointing out that the examples of material breaches were at the end of the HSE document.

It's intriguing to see that the first example given in the document is non-display of the Health & Safety at Work Law poster. During my decade in HSE if my colleagues or I noted that any workplaces were not displaying any of the posters then required by law (re Factories Act 1961, Abrasive Wheels Regulations, etc) we would give verbal advice if no other shortcomings were noted. If letters were sent about several matters noted we would mention the posters for good measure. However, we would never pay return visits regarding such posters. Furthermore, I don't recall any employer ever being prosecuted for not displaying an official poster, even to boost numbers when pursuing prosecution about a number of different matters.

When compared with matters which threatened life or limb, the non-display of official posters was generally regarded by inspectors as a trivial matter. Part of this stance stemmed from the fact that few if any people were likely to read and heed the posters. For example when visiting premises with woodworking machines we would look at the machinery guarding standards, watch machines being used to see if the adjustable guards were correctly set, and talk with operators to discern their level of (compulsory) training and understanding of the practical elements of the Woodworking Machines Regulations 1974 which were then in force. Therefore, if we were satisfied that the operators were competent and machines could be used safely, the absence of the poster regarding the regulations didn't matter. It's possible that inspectors have changed their stance regarding posters since my time in HSE, but I very much doubt it.

I wonder what HSE inspectors themselves think of the drastic proposals for "extending cost recovery" by HSE and how they will affect them in their work. Perhaps some of them (including those who are members of IOSH) will see this forum topic and respond, especially if they can use pseudonyms.
Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.