Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
R Rue  
#1 Posted : 22 February 2012 16:57:18(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
R Rue

I've very recently been introduced to the phrase 'tolerable risk' and wonder if this phrase is accepted and used by others in a H&S context?
David Bannister  
#2 Posted : 22 February 2012 17:15:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

PAS 79 uses the term as a conclusion and I take it to mean an acceptable level of risk once reasonable controls are in place i.e the risk of persons being hurt in a fire is acceptably low but not eradicated.

Ron Hunter  
#3 Posted : 22 February 2012 17:23:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

I believe ISO 18001 also uses the term.
DP  
#4 Posted : 22 February 2012 17:54:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
DP

Torrerable risk is a widly used principles in risk management - with regards safety risk, is not similar to the test of Reasonable Practicable?

It is used in 18001 I also believe..........
RayRapp  
#5 Posted : 22 February 2012 18:14:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

One could argue it is no more than semantics. What is the difference between tolerable and acceptable risk? Incidentally, the HSE use the term 'tolerable' in their Tolerability Of Risk (TOR) research document r2p2, probably the most boring research document ever written.
John J  
#6 Posted : 22 February 2012 18:15:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John J

First used, in relation to safety, in this paper I believe http://www.hse.gov.uk/nuclear/tolerability.pdf
Nandkumar  
#7 Posted : 22 February 2012 21:04:49(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Nandkumar

In my openion, terminology of tolerable risk is no more with OHSAS 18001:2007?
Ron Hunter  
#8 Posted : 22 February 2012 22:20:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Spot on Nandkumar. The 2007 revision to ISO 18001 replaced the 1999 term “tolerable risk” with “acceptable risk”.
JeffreyWatt  
#9 Posted : 22 February 2012 23:31:53(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
JeffreyWatt

Safety is a myth, "tolerable risk" is the reality.

Naww I liked it better with tolerable left out.
JJ Prendergast  
#10 Posted : 22 February 2012 23:38:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JJ Prendergast

'Tolerable risk' and 'ALARP' terms are widely used when doing QRA and ALARP justification assessments in the oil/gas/petro chemical industry.

R2P2 also used quite frequently.
redken  
#11 Posted : 23 February 2012 08:27:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
redken


http://www.hse.gov.uk/nuclear/tolerability.pdf

'Tolerability' does not mean 'acceptability'. It refers to a willingness to live with a risk so as to secure certain benefits and in the confidence that it is being properly controlled
Irwin43241  
#12 Posted : 23 February 2012 09:03:51(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

I have had sight of many examples where an organisation operates with a 'Risk Register' and some risks are documented as 'Tolerable'. This is taken by management as 'we can live with the risk' however, there was no control measures considered or applied to any risk considered as 'Tolerable'. I think the word 'Tolerable' is open to mislead.
Safety Smurf  
#13 Posted : 23 February 2012 09:19:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

I think it might help if we differentiated between "tolerable" and "tolerated". The words tolerable and tolerated seem to be used in the same context as acceptable and accepted and in both contexts the first has a more positive conatation than the latter.

i.e; Acceptable could be read as "agreeable" where as accepted is more likely to be read as "put up with".

And yes,... It's semantics!
jay  
#14 Posted : 23 February 2012 09:20:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Tolerability of Risk (ToR) terminology is primarily used in quantitative risk assessments required in high hazard industries that have permissioning regimes.

OHSAS 18001/2 and BS 18004 refer to "Acceptable Risks" in its terminology and definitions section, but goes on to define that acceptable risk as one "that has been reduced to a level that can be tolerated by
the organization having regard to its legal obligations and its own OH&S policy"

Therefore in general terms, when you do not undertake quantitative risk assessments for high hazard industries, it is for your organisation to decide where you want to demarcate the tolerable risk criteria in the complete framework of law, corporate policies etc.

Digressing slightly, R2P2 is a key document that describes HSE’s decision-making process. It is supposed to make transparent the protocols and procedures HSE follows to ensure that the process of decision-making, including risk assessment and risk management, is perceived as valid. Professionally, I found it very informative.

There was an extensive consultation in the form of a Discussion Document in May 1999 prior to the publication of this document in 2001. The preface, introduction and its purpose gives more details regarding R2P2.

A major purpose of the document was to set out an overall framework for decision taking by HSE which would ensure consistency and coherence across the full range of risks falling within the scope of the Health and Safety at Work Act. This framework was based on the method which HSE applies to the control of risk at nuclear power stations, originally published in 1988 as The tolerability of risks from nuclear power stations . The publication of the discussion document in 1999 was reinforced due to the need to publish a description of HSE’s decision-making process as public concern over such matters as Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE), railway safety and food safety intensified the call for openness about how decisions are taken on the regulation of risks. The public is also more aware that, given few activities are without any risk, there must be a balance between the health and safety measures introduced to eliminate or control risks, and the costs arising or benefits forgone when the measures are introduced.


http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/theory/r2p2.pdf




Graham Bullough  
#15 Posted : 23 February 2012 12:56:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Another aspect to this topic is that it depends on who is doing the accepting or tolerating of the risks! For example, didn't it emerge after the Channel Tunnel was completed that those planning the British construction project anticipated that some deaths (at least 11?) would occur during the project? I bet nobody involved in the actual construction work would have considered any deaths to be acceptable.

peter gotch  
#16 Posted : 23 February 2012 13:45:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

R Rue

If you google R2P2 you'll get to the pdf.
JJ Prendergast  
#17 Posted : 23 February 2012 14:15:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JJ Prendergast

I bet nobody involved in the actual construction work would have considered any deaths to be acceptable.



Quite agree.

However, even HASWA recognises that there is some risk in going to work and hence by implication some people will still get killed or injured - 'so far as is reasonably practicable'

So I find the zero tolerance targets set by many organisations to be a bit silly, as they are not achieveable in practice or legally required.

There are lots of arguments for and against QRA and the accuracy of the numbers and data sources used, however as designers in the O&G industry we have to justify our designs. Using the data in R2P2 remains the main 'official' guidance on risk tolerability.

As ever the HSE/Government continue to sit on the fence over such matters.
Graham Bullough  
#18 Posted : 23 February 2012 15:06:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Although there may have been an element of good fortune, surely the intentions and commitment by all concerned in the planning and construction of the London Olympic site, a massive project, played a major part in making it the first ever Olympic site to be completed without any fatalities.

Also, it's curious that though considerable resources are devoted in the UK to minimising death and injury from work activities, a comparable standard of resources doesn't seem to be devoted to reducing deaths, serious injury and all the other adverse consequences of road accidents in the UK. If such a standard were to be pursued to reduce the financial and other burden of such accidents, perhaps the UK would introduce measures like re-testing drivers say every 10 years and requiring proof of good eyesight, corrected if necessary, say every 5 years!

I'll hit 'post' now and anticipate some fairly prompt responses to protest that such suggestions would involve infringements of freedom and human rights, etc!
JJ Prendergast  
#19 Posted : 23 February 2012 15:25:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JJ Prendergast

We could go off and argue the relative merits of different safety issues to be mitigated - either in a true work situation or in society as a whole (driving, smoking etc)

One of the frequent arguments in QRA is what is a life worth? Is a design ALARP? etc

It always seems rather silly to me, and I guess its a measure of the drama and press interest in 'big bang' accidents.

A petro chem site blow up - 10 killed. It will be in the papers/on the news for weeks afterwards. HSE inquiry, possible Public Enquiry etc etc.

On the same day 10 people get killed in conventional but separate road accidents - little press interest. Maybe a paragraph in the local paper, brief mention on the local tv news?

Who's life was more important?

I still think at times we have no sense of relative risk in this country, especially when politicians get involved.

You only have to read some of the ridiculous press stories citing 'elf and safety' for banning certain activities. Not to mention over the top advice given on this forum for what are probably trivial risks.

NigelB  
#20 Posted : 23 February 2012 17:57:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NigelB

Taking the term ‘tolerable risk’ from the HSE’s publication on the Nuclear Industry and R2P2 document means specific things in relation to operations with major consequences resulting from systems that fail. Once the term is applied to other work its meaning get kicked about and as Graham points out, to whom then is the risk ‘tolerable’?

There have been some interesting posts over the years which almost lead to the position that risk assessment – coupled with the qualifying term ‘reasonably practicable’ – is some kind of scientific process which gets you to an impartial measure on which you can confidently propose control measures.

For most occupations I have always thought of the risk assessment process as a guided form of guesswork. You do your best with the available information and experience to put control measures in place to either eliminate the risk – where you can – or adequately control the risks that cannot be eliminated. As such, concepts of ZERO HARM can be useful because they maintain an approach akin to ‘continuous challenge’ of existing control measures. Should this be done systematically – in a ‘reasonably practicable’ way of course – then the business concept of ‘continuous improvement’ can be applied to health and safety standards.

The preventative solutions to most workplace accidents are well known but not consistently applied across all organisations. To argue that there will always be accidents at work is to imply that the ability to accurately predict the future has arrived. I’m not convinced that anybody has that ability just yet. Who knows what the future holds in 1, 5 or 10 years?

In the meantime it may be useful to try and close the organisational gap between those who have to face the risks and those who have the resources to eliminate or adequately control such risks. Indeed this might even make work more tolerable generally.

Cheers.

Nigel
Graham Bullough  
#21 Posted : 23 February 2012 17:59:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

JJ Prendergast is spot on regarding the massive contrast in media attention between a major incident with multiple fatalities and separate road accidents with only one or two deaths per scene. The contrast is even greater regarding the minimal media attention given to deaths from asbestos. In most cases the death gets no more than an item, often no more than a few paragraphs, in a local paper - and perhaps only if a reporter happened to be in court during a coroner's inquest into the death.

The aftermaths of some road accidents have wrecked vehicles, emergency vehicles, etc of which TV and press reporters can take film footage or photographs to include in their reports. By contrast there's no imagery to accompany a press report of an asbestos death, apart from an old photo of the deceased when alive and well - if a reporter has asked for one from relatives. If the deceased was well known, the inquest may reap more publicity than usual. One example of this was the death of Steve McQueen, the Hollywood fim actor, from mesothelioma at the age of 50 in 1980.

peter gotch  
#22 Posted : 24 February 2012 12:57:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Graham the official UK Government Value for Preventing a (statistical) Fatality (VPF) is currently in excess of £1.5m and this value is used, albeit not consistently, in decision making as regards safety improvements e.g. in relation to transport.

Sometimes (certainly in rail, not sure where else) it's extended to the Value for Preventing and equivalent Fatality, where in short, 1F = 10 major injuries = 200 over 3 day injury accidents, and not like for like alternatives for injuries to the public.

Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.