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Lishka0  
#1 Posted : 12 December 2014 10:47:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Lishka0

I am hoping that someone can help settle a bit of confusion around asbestos surveys for domestic clients having refurbishment works completed through a Council grant scheme. We (acting as the Principal Contractor) are having a bit of dispute around whether this should have asbestos surveys completed as they are private owners. My personal view is this is grant work therefore the Council is the 'client' under CDM and does require a Refurb survey and all CDM regs apply including providing necessary information Plus the fact there is a duty of care for the occupiers, contractors etc and this information should be available (the argument of a private owner doesn't seem relevant in this case) I was just interested in people's views as at the moment we are getting lots of conflicting views from other H&S professionals!
RayRapp  
#2 Posted : 12 December 2014 11:03:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

In my opinion the LA would be deemed the 'client' and therefore CDM Regs, HSWA, etc would apply. In the case of refurbishment work an asbestos D/R survey would be required along with any other relevant pre-construction information for the PC.
edwill7  
#3 Posted : 12 December 2014 14:25:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
edwill7

Regardless of CDM and who is the client title holder, would you not want to know if the buildings posed an asbestos risk to your guys health?
Davey  
#4 Posted : 15 December 2014 13:58:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Davey

L143 Regulation 4 Duty to manage asbestos in none- domestic premises. This regulation covers the duty to manage asbestos in non-domestic premises. It requires duty holders to identify the location and condition of asbestos in non-domestic premises and to manage the risk to prevent harm to anyone who works on the building or to building occupants. It also explains what is required of people who have a duty to co-operate with the main duty holder to enable them to comply with the regulation. Non-domestic premises includes the common parts of domestic premises. However, the requirements do apply to common parts of premises, including housing developments and blocks of flats, but do not place any direct duties on landlords for individual houses or flats. Examples of common parts would include foyers, corridors, lifts and lift shafts, staircases, boiler houses, vertical risers, gardens, yards and outhouses. The requirements do not apply to rooms within a private residence which are shared by more than one household, such as bathrooms, kitchens etc. in shared houses and communal dining rooms and lounges in sheltered accommodation L143 Regulation 5 Identification of the presence of asbestos This regulation requires employers to identify the presence of asbestos and its type and condition before any building, maintenance, demolition or other work, liable to disturb asbestos, begins. It also sets out the requirement to arrange a survey if existing information on the presence of asbestos in the premises is incomplete or appears unreliable CAR 2012 applies to all work with asbestos. It requires employers to prevent exposure of employees to asbestos or, where this is not reasonably practicable, to reduce exposure as low as is reasonably practicable. The spread of asbestos should also be prevented CDM Requires the client to pass on information about the state or condition of any premises (including the presence of hazardous materials such as asbestos) to the CDM Coordinator before any work begins and to ensure that the health and safety file is available for inspection by anyone who needs the information
bob youel  
#5 Posted : 16 December 2014 08:45:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

Unless there is anything very very unusual in the wording of the specific council grant scheme documents then the person who pays [as already said = the LA] the contractor is the client with the client duties NB: LA's are doing their best to get around this sort of duty nowadays and are trying to lay all that they can off to others so be very careful with regards to the wording of your contracts
aud  
#6 Posted : 16 December 2014 21:03:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
aud

The client can be the beneficiary of the work, not necessarily the finance source. Different councils do this differently - some 'take over' the work, and COULD be considered as the client. Others just give the money - leaving the domestic client in charge of the work and process. I have asked this specific question of HSE CDM specialist inspectors - who is the client? - to get the response: 'Hmm. Grey area'. Any contractor would have to consider the asbestos risk for work in any property built before 2000, if it needs a surveyor to check, that's part of the price for the job. A pragmatic approach recommended: purpose of regulation - protect people. Have appropriate controls specified, and a survey if necessary, but don't get carried away with CDM detail, which adds little, if any, additional safety.
bob youel  
#7 Posted : 17 December 2014 07:19:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

There is no duty under H&S law created vis HSWA74 for a domestic private person that I can find to act as a duty holder / manage anything however the builder has duties as they are at work and if in doubt they should undertake an asbestos survey via a suitable person and whoever is providing the cash [LA or other source] needs to pay for the asbestos survey etc. and any other such areas that may arise - the domestic tenant living there will not be paying anything - can U imagine asking an average old age pensioner/householder to pay a large fee for an asbestos survey/strip etc.! The problem we have is that builders need work so accept what is given to them & I do not really blame them for that as they have to live and the LA and other such sources of cash will not pay proper fees to builders so quality standards and risk management falls by the wayside - I am sure that the authorities are fully aware of this
peter gotch  
#8 Posted : 18 December 2014 14:18:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Grant aided does not necessarily mean LA paying 100% of the contract sum.
bob youel  
#9 Posted : 20 December 2014 08:31:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

if in doubt its the 'controller' of the activities / those undertaking the work & as as stated the money provider may not have any direct involvement or have no proximity This may be a case of your contract negotiation people missing the subject so your company is stuck with the problem of paying and managing any asbestos found etc.
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