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Does the Main entrance into a building require a fire exit sign.
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I believe not but would like confirmation from fellow professionals. Thanks
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If in the event of a fire and the power went down , a lit fire exit sign powered on the emergency lighting circuit ring just may save some ones life .
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mickey wrote:I believe not but would like confirmation from fellow professionals. Thanks
If its a fire exit it then needs to be signed
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Rank: Super forum user 
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No, because a main door should not be classed as a fire exit.
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Rank: Super forum user
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mickey wrote:I believe not but would like confirmation from fellow professionals. Thanks
Mickey,
Do escape-route signs (green/white fast-walking man and arrow) lead to the main entrance? If so, it is a fire exit and needs a sign that can be seen.
In the event of a power cut in the winter would the entrance area (inside) be dark?
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Rank: Super forum user
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I would never class it unless it was the only way out and in that case it would be a small building.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Refer back to the fire risk assessment.
If the main entrance is needed as a fire exit then the answer is Yes. If there are adequate other exit routes then probably not.
In a small shop where the only exit is through the very obvious front and adequate lighting is available at all times then the fire risk assessor may deem that a sign is not needed.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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If the main door meets the requirements of a fire exit, then there should be no reason for it not being a fire exit.
In small retail units it is likely it will be one of the two ways out.
In this case a sign above it will guide people out, especially important if the other exit is near any possible fire.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Invictus wrote:No, because a main door should not be classed as a fire exit.
The Fire Safety Order 2005 does not prohibit including a main entrance as a fire exit. Whether it should be, will depend on the fire risk assessment giving regard to the number of exits available.
The FSO says
Quote:
the number, distribution and dimensions of emergency routes and exits must be adequate having regard to the use, equipment and dimensions of the premises and the maximum number of persons who may be present there at any one time
and so does not exclude main entrance.
Many premises I visit have just two exits, front and back, so in those cases I advise signing both as fire exits.
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Rank: Super forum user
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So, if escape route signs in the premises lead staff to the main entrance then it IS a fire exit, and FSO goes on to say,
Quote:
(g) emergency routes and exits must be indicated by signs; and
(h) emergency routes and exits requiring illumination must be provided with emergency lighting of adequate intensity in the case of failure of their normal lighting.
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Rank: Super forum user
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JohnW wrote:Invictus wrote:No, because a main door should not be classed as a fire exit.
The Fire Safety Order 2005 does not prohibit including a main entrance as a fire exit. Whether it should be, will depend on the fire risk assessment giving regard to the number of exits available.
The FSO says
Quote:
the number, distribution and dimensions of emergency routes and exits must be adequate having regard to the use, equipment and dimensions of the premises and the maximum number of persons who may be present there at any one time
and so does not exclude main entrance.
Many premises I visit have just two exits, front and back, so in those cases I advise signing both as fire exits.
I didn't say it did, but if you look at most entrances they open in, fire exit should open out.
We all use the main entrance but it doesn't have to be signed. I could of just said what does your risk assessment say.
I would not insist on it unless it was used through the night or a cinema.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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no because it is a usual route, alternative exits require signage.
BS 9999:2008 Code of practice for fire safety in the design, management and use of buildings’ states the following: ‘Every doorway or other exit providing access to a means of escape, other than exits in ordinary use (e.g. main entrances), should be distinctively and conspicuously marked by an exit sign in accordance’
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Rank: Super forum user
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Invictus wrote:
I didn't say it did, but if you look at most entrances they open in, fire exit should open out.
I agree most entrances do open in, but the publication fsra-factories-warehouses.pdf says
Quote:
Exit doors on escape routes and final exit doors should normally open in the direction
of travel, and be quickly and easily openable without the need for a key.
'normally' does not exclude having a main entrance exit door that does not open in the direction of travel.
Invictus wrote:
We all use the main entrance but it doesn't have to be signed.
As I said, if escape route signs in the premises lead staff to the main entrance then it IS a fire exit, and FSO says it should be signed.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Not all main entrances are as obvious as others.
I.e. A department store, Hotel, shopping mall etc. may have a beautiful set of entrance doors that are in a well lit area and may even be signed "way out" but some smaller buildings may have a singe door that is not so obvious.
The last fire risk assessment I did the building had a lobby just inside the entrance with three doors, one to a toilet, one to the office and the other the entrance/exit. None of the was signed.
All three doors were single timber and painted the same colour.
Which one was the exit?
The answer-the one that had a fire exit sign fitted upon my recommendation.
The answer to the original question is let the fire risk assessment dictate.
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Rank: Super forum user
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FireSafety101 wrote:
The answer to the original question is let the fire risk assessment dictate.
Yes FS101, I have to agree with that, and that is if the FRA is written with competence :o)
As with most things H&S in UK the Fire Safety Order is not 'absolute'. FSO Article 14 has several statements that say 'must' but the paragraph 14 (2) says
Quote:
The following requirements must be complied with in respect of premises where necessary ....
the 'where necessary' is dictated by a competently written fire risk assessment.
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JohnW wrote:FireSafety101 wrote:
The answer to the original question is let the fire risk assessment dictate.
Yes FS101, I have to agree with that, and that is if the FRA is written with competence :o)
As with most things H&S in UK the Fire Safety Order is not 'absolute'. FSO Article 14 has several statements that say 'must' but the paragraph 14 (2) says
Quote:
The following requirements must be complied with in respect of premises where necessary ....
the 'where necessary' is dictated by a competently written fire risk assessment.
Its taken 15 posts before the correct answer is provided (sorry FS101) 14
Why are so many of you providing definitive answers when you are plainly wrong,
If you ignore the 'where necessarys' scattered through the RRO, then the whole exercise becomes prescriptive. That was never the idea of the fire safety order - fire safety provision is all risk based.
On a small simple premises, there may be no need to sign the front door. My local pharmacy has a main door from the street and a rear door to a car park. They have a non maintained EL sign at the rear and nothing at the front as the door can be seen from anywhere in the store and is used by 75% of customers.
So the answer is 'where necessary'
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To be fair, mssy, David had the answer in #7 !
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JohnW wrote:To be fair, mssy, David had the answer in #7 !
My apologies to David
The point is I do fire safety all day and every day - and have dome for well over 30 years. I restrict my input here to FS matters. OK, I might comment of H&S issues , but I never give a definitive answer to a question from a H&S expert's POV
So why do so many H&S practitioners make a stab at answers on here (a public site) when some are clearly not competent? Sorry about the rant, but fire safety is important and while the subject of if/where a sign is located isn't risk critical, I have seen some shocking advice on here.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Some of the comments on this thread - including some of my own - were stating what we do for our own site, so the answers given were for our own circumstances.
So we were giving different answers or different opinions. Not all were 'wrong', we were just answering from our own experience or the situation at our work location.
The correct answer, as you say, was 'depends on your location risk assessment' and determining 'where necessary'.
But that answer might not be satisfactory to the original poster, presumably he posted here because he was unsure of the level of risk on his site and wanted advice. The original poster 'mickey' hasn't explained anything about his work site hence the variety of answers he got.
Unfortunately we did not get any feedback from the original poster 'mickey' who probably hasn't returned to the forum since his first posting. If he started reading this thread he may have given up thinking these professional people can't agree, but the problem was we didn't have enough information to give him the best advice.
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Here Here JohnW
I for one come here to learn and gain peoples views on issues which I find different all of the time .
Some times reading posts like yours mssy some times makes me not want to return here.
New people who post may have different views and may not always be right but maybe just explaining those wrong answers to them instead of calling people not competent may help !
I must say I have learnt of this thread like most posts I read which is the whole idea isn't it?
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Rank: Super forum user 
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I can also imagine it is off putting to non safety professionals who may read these posts and see that quite often discussions develop into arguments about who is right and who is wrong.
If safety people cant agree on an answer to a question what hope do we have.
I work in safety, I don't particularity like it to be honest but its a means to an end.
I like black or white. Unfortunately in the safety world we tend to live in a world of grey.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Stonecold, you have it right it's all down to interpretation of the regulations. I have been audited that many times and at times even thought of walking out because ofthe frustration when you get a different auditor who doesn't like the way you do something yet the first one thought it was great.
It's not so much them it's explaining it to senior managers who think were all mad anyway.
But maybe that's a different thread!
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mickey wrote:I believe not but would like confirmation from fellow professionals. Thanks
Ok so I`ll end it now.
If you want to put a sign up, put it up, if you dont, dont.
If you knew the answer to your question before posting, why post???
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Rank: Super forum user
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JohnW wrote:To be fair, mssy, David had the answer in #7 !
Not quite, as he says if it is required as a fire exit to sign it.
As I and mssy seem to agree on it is not necessary when is obvious and can be readily seen.
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Rank: Super forum user
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FireSafety101 wrote:
Not quite, as he says if it is required as a fire exit to sign it.
But David then said
Quote:If there are adequate other exit routes then probably not.
I think we all have it now :o)
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Rank: Super forum user
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JohnW wrote:FireSafety101 wrote:
Not quite, as he says if it is required as a fire exit to sign it.
But David then said
Quote:If there are adequate other exit routes then probably not.
I think we all have it now :o)
I be a little picky now but the above is not the answer to the question, which asks about the main entrance being signd as a fire exit.
It doesn't matter how many other adequate exit routes there are, the point is if the main entrance is a fire exit and is not an obvious exit then it should be signed.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Ooooh Betty, they're shouting.
Never mind Frank, it's only a load of self-proclaimed experts disagreeing with each other.
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Most people know were they came into abuilding and how to get out, it's the other exits that they don't. Watch the night club fire and see how many tried getting out the same way they came. That's why fire wardens are so valuble.
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Rank: Super forum user
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FireSafety101 wrote:Not all main entrances are as obvious as others.
I.e. A department store, Hotel, shopping mall etc. may have a beautiful set of entrance doors that are in a well lit area and may even be signed "way out" but some smaller buildings may have a singe door that is not so obvious.
The last fire risk assessment I did the building had a lobby just inside the entrance with three doors, one to a toilet, one to the office and the other the entrance/exit. None of the was signed.
All three doors were single timber and painted the same colour.
Which one was the exit?
The answer-the one that had a fire exit sign fitted upon my recommendation.
The answer to the original question is let the fire risk assessment dictate.
I made an error when I wrote this, there are actually 4 doors to the lobby, each one identical, they lead to, a toilet, an office, an engineering workshop and the exit.
Would anyone say the exit should not be signed now ?
How about a poll - yes for the sign and no for no sign.
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Rank: Super forum user
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FireSafety101 wrote: ..... there are actually 4 doors to the lobby, each one identical, they lead to, a toilet, an office, an engineering workshop and the exit.
Would anyone say the exit should not be signed now ?
How about a poll - yes for the sign and no for no sign.
In THIS case YES
David Bannister wrote:
Ooooh Betty, they're shouting.
Never mind Frank, it's only a load of self-proclaimed experts disagreeing with each other.
Frank Spencer of course. David we must be the same age :o)
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Rank: Super forum user
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I sincerely apologise if I upset anyone with my clumsy use of the word ‘competent’. That was not a professional reply and I was wrong. For the record, I didn’t mean any specific individual was incompetent, but merely some of the fire safety advice given was incorrect and wrong.
Two examples
> …a main door should not be classed as a fire exit.
> If it’s a fire exit it then needs to be signed
I knew my post wouldn’t be popular, but I am saddened its turned into an unsightly row as that was not my intention. Neither was putting anyone off visiting this site. But visiting this professional forum and getting wrong advice is unacceptable.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Well, mssy, no offence taken - the second comment was one of mine - I forgot to add 'where necessary' :o))
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Does the Main entrance into a building require a fire exit sign.
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