Rank: Forum user 
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"Ted and I boarded a bus after shopping in Purple Street. As usual I recommended to Ted that he sit on a seat for the journey, but as usual Ted did not, probably as it was only necessary for us to travel one stop. Ted stood in the aisle near the stairs to top deck. I stood nearby and we talked. Suddenly the bus negotiated a change of vertical gradient as it crossed Orange Street and Ted lost his balance and fell on the floor. He suffered a broken upper femur".
The above is the description of the accident as reported except Ted is not his real name and the names of the streets have been changed. Ted is an adult with learning difficulties and was out shopping with his support worker.
Ted has adamantly stated that the accident was his own fault and has learnt (the hard way) why he should sit down on the bus. His care plan has been updated as has his social worker.
I understand that the support worker is at work but cannot decide the position of Ted.
Please, can anyone tell me if this is an accident reportable under RIDDOR regulations?
Thanks
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Rank: Super forum user
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Just a Q - to assist the forum responding... This is never black and white I guess there may be more...
Did Ted go directly to the Hospital from the scene of accident?
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Rank: Forum user
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From the limited information, I would say not reportable as the accident could not be describes as out of or in connection with the work of the support worker (i.e. a specific work task of theirs in the care of the individual, unless you consider it the bus drivers failing and then their, the bus company's need to report) and has not occurred within a recognised workplace under the control of the care employer/provider, similarly.
Pete,
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Rank: Super forum user
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I tend not to report anything which is obviously "tripped over my own feet"/"my own stupid fault".
But, as previous poster said, it's not always simple.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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I am assuming that "Ted" is an employee? Otherwise why would this be reported to the HSE?
RIDDOR is for reporting workplace incidents / accidents that fall under the regs by employees in the workplace or whilst carrying out their duties for an employer on another site.
If "Ted" is a care user then it is the CQC (Care Quality Commission) with whom you need to follow this up http://www.cqc.org.uk/file/4732
It would be advisable to read up on the sector regs: http://www.cqc.org.uk/co...e-providers-and-managers
If you are in the care field and haven't already done so , then it would also help to get to know Skills for Care, who are great for guiding and advising: http://www.skillsforcare.org.uk/Home.aspx
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Rank: Super forum user
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It could be argued that a) Their was no work activity being carried out at the time, B) It was relating to road transport incident. c) It's not clear if the supported person went to hospital.
On the face of it not RIDDOR in my view.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hsis1.pdf
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Just to muddy the waters, Toe, the bus driver was working & his job was to transport passengers in safety. Thus this was a work related accident to a MoP.
A broken femur is a significant injury and Ted was likely taken to hospital for treatment.
Good night all.
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Rank: Forum user
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From the description you have given 'Ted' is effectively a customer/client of the services offered, as such I would treat him as a member of the public. Most likely he went to hospital directly given the injury so it could be RIDDOR reportable under those circumstances.
As others have said, it hinges on whether or not you believe the incident is work related. On balance I would say no but it would be worth a phone call to the IRDDOR reporting line to ask for their advice given that this is a significant injury.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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What does it matter if at work, it would still have to be something created by the work. The bus turning corner to quickly is not created by the work situation! The fact he was on the bus is immaterial. He appears to be a service users and therefore is a member of the public, it would be up to the bus company to report.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Yup, Invictus has that right.
Regarding the initial query...
Specific HSE guidance on RIDDOR and the care sector:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hsis1.pdf
Unless something relevant was identified in their care plan that was not being implemented by the worker that contributed to the accident (or conversely SHOULD have been identified in advance), then this won't be reportable.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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WatsonD wrote:I am assuming that "Ted" is an employee? Otherwise why would this be reported to the HSE?
RIDDOR is for reporting workplace incidents / accidents that fall under the regs by employees in the workplace or whilst carrying out their duties for an employer on another site.
If "Ted" is a care user then it is the CQC (Care Quality Commission) with whom you need to follow this up http://www.cqc.org.uk/file/4732
It would be advisable to read up on the sector regs: http://www.cqc.org.uk/co...e-providers-and-managers
If you are in the care field and haven't already done so , then it would also help to get to know Skills for Care, who are great for guiding and advising: http://www.skillsforcare.org.uk/Home.aspx
Just to clarify the above. Care giver or care receiver - you would still report under RIDDOR - Section 3 of the Guidance, obviously incident dependant. It would still be for the HSE and CQC to liaise with respect to further investigations - but advising that RIDDOR isn't appropriate or HSE notification isn't needed simply isn't true.
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Rank: Super forum user
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It has to be something created by the task and that we or the service provider caused, just because the Be turned quickly does not make it RIDDOR reportable by the care giver. If a person in a residential establishment, slipped out of a chair and hurt themselves this doesn't make it reportable, if the chair however had bricks under one end that we put there then it would. An elderly person gets up and falls over and hurts themselves not reportable as there was nothing there that could be attributed to the care provider, elderly person gets up and trips over a cable reportable, we put the cable there.
Don't get confused between CQC and OFSTED requirements, against those that are required by the HSE sometimes there is no correlation between the two enforcing authorities.
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Rank: Super forum user
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JayPownall wrote:WatsonD wrote:I am assuming that "Ted" is an employee? Otherwise why would this be reported to the HSE?
RIDDOR is for reporting workplace incidents / accidents that fall under the regs by employees in the workplace or whilst carrying out their duties for an employer on another site.
If "Ted" is a care user then it is the CQC (Care Quality Commission) with whom you need to follow this up http://www.cqc.org.uk/file/4732
It would be advisable to read up on the sector regs: http://www.cqc.org.uk/co...e-providers-and-managers
If you are in the care field and haven't already done so , then it would also help to get to know Skills for Care, who are great for guiding and advising: http://www.skillsforcare.org.uk/Home.aspx
Just to clarify the above. Care giver or care receiver - you would still report under RIDDOR - Section 3 of the Guidance, obviously incident dependant. It would still be for the HSE and CQC to liaise with respect to further investigations - but advising that RIDDOR isn't appropriate or HSE notification isn't needed simply isn't true.
...Maybe I should clarify. I am not advising the incident aforementioned is RIDDOR or not - I am pointing out that a sweeping statement that seems to suggest that RIDDOR doesn't come into play for anyone other than care givers or those in employment isn't correct - and that service user incidents can, and are reported to the HSE (http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hsis1.pdf)
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Rank: Super forum user
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Is there any issue/penalty by making a RIDDOR report in this case even if it turns out not to have been necessary?
If not, then am I right in thinking that it would be best practice to report if in doubt, rather than risk prosecution for not reporting?
Perhaps then the HSE would be able to see where the lines are blurred and further clarity is needed.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I disagree that it would be best practice.
It would be back covering only and I know of formal guidance that suggests to do this as a matter of routine.
Can I also suggest that regulators don't want be reading and processing hundreds of unnecessary RIDDOR reports. There are less and less competent staff out there doing the job as it is, don't force them to sit at the desk for more than they have to if you genuinely want them out there targeting poor performers and 'rogues'.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Argh. ...no formal guidance... I know of NO formal guidance.
Edit please! And since there isn't an edit function, knock this repeated 'can't post for 58 seconds' for infinity minutes nonsense on the head.
Can we join the 21st Century? ;)
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Rank: Forum user
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He appears to be a service users and therefore is a member of the public, it would be up to the bus company to report.
Agree, not a work related incident for either Ted or the care worker, it may be a RIDDOR for the bus company, it could also be seen as a RTC so not reportable.
If it came down to splitting hairs like this in my work I would not be reporting, if an investigation by HSE was carried out to see why this was not reported I cant see them finding fault in not reporting.
Patrick.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Xavier123 wrote:I disagree that it would be best practice.
It would be back covering only and I know of formal guidance that suggests to do this as a matter of routine.
Can I also suggest that regulators don't want be reading and processing hundreds of unnecessary RIDDOR reports. There are less and less competent staff out there doing the job as it is, don't force them to sit at the desk for more than they have to if you genuinely want them out there targeting poor performers and 'rogues'.
Xavier123 I am not suggesting to report everything "as a matter of routine". My suggestion was that in a situation, such as this, where it is not immediately clear-cut would it be better to report rather than not?
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Rank: Super forum user
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It's easy, it's not reportable!
But report just in case it maybe, might be, could be, should be, isn't or not sure what to do!
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Rank: Forum user
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WatsonD wrote:Xavier123 wrote:
Xavier123 I am not suggesting to report everything "as a matter of routine". My suggestion was that in a situation, such as this, where it is not immediately clear-cut would it be better to report rather than not?
Why on earth would you report?
If everyone reported every time a service user hurt themselves, just because they didn't think it was clear cut, what a mess we would be in.
The OP clearly stated that Ted was out with his support worker. Not sure what is unclear about that, to be honest
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Rank: Super forum user
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Watcher wrote:WatsonD wrote:Xavier123 wrote:
Xavier123 I am not suggesting to report everything "as a matter of routine". My suggestion was that in a situation, such as this, where it is not immediately clear-cut would it be better to report rather than not?
Why on earth would you report?
If everyone reported every time a service user hurt themselves, just because they didn't think it was clear cut, what a mess we would be in.
The OP clearly stated that Ted was out with his support worker. Not sure what is unclear about that, to be honest
I was merely asking whether, in incidences that were not clear-cut, perhaps those who were not sure would be better to err on the side of caution? Not suggesting that we start to report everything. I made this statement on the understanding that not every organisation has a H&S professional on hand.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Surely many are missing the important bit: a passenger was severely injured on a bus (probably) requiring hospitalisation as a result of the bus driver carrying out a work activity for his employer.
The only doubt in my mind is whether this is classed as a road traffic incident (reportable therefore to police) or work-related and thus RIDDOR.
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Rank: Super forum user
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David Bannister wrote:Surely many are missing the important bit: a passenger was severely injured on a bus (probably) requiring hospitalisation as a result of the bus driver carrying out a work activity for his employer.
Work related by the driver, maybe but not by the care giver or company, But at the same time there were seats and the person refused to sit saying he wanted to stand, so culpable by his own actions.
The police maybe but why wait 3 hours for them to turn up.
The person was taken directly to hospital is an assuption, the poster doesn't say that! We are assuming he was due to the injury. I wonder how many times this happens and it's not reported, did the driver get the injured person, address etc? we don't know if he did then he may of reported it anyway we don't know has the poster asked the bus company or is she throwing out a question, if he didn't you can't report because the form won't allow it without the relevant information.
So my professional is opinion is no based on the information of the poster.
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Rank: Forum user
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David Bannister wrote:Surely many are missing the important bit: a passenger was severely injured on a bus (probably) requiring hospitalisation as a result of the bus driver carrying out a work activity for his employer.
The only doubt in my mind is whether this is classed as a road traffic incident (reportable therefore to police) or work-related and thus RIDDOR.
Is this "... the important bit"?
Personally, I would disagree that this was the important bit. If the bus driver takes the same route, over and over, then that is his usual working pattern.
Unless he was speeding over speed humps, ignored a road closed sign, or some other blatant deviation from his normal route and way of travel, then I would not class this as a work related incident.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Watcher wrote:David Bannister wrote:Surely many are missing the important bit: a passenger was severely injured on a bus (probably) requiring hospitalisation as a result of the bus driver carrying out a work activity for his employer.
The only doubt in my mind is whether this is classed as a road traffic incident (reportable therefore to police) or work-related and thus RIDDOR.
Is this "... the important bit"?
Personally, I would disagree that this was the important bit. If the bus driver takes the same route, over and over, then that is his usual working pattern.
Unless he was speeding over speed humps, ignored a road closed sign, or some other blatant deviation from his normal route and way of travel, then I would not class this as a work related incident.
He might of been jumping over 15 motorbikes, you never know.
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Rank: New forum user
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The following are reportable, if they arise ‘out of or in
connection with work’:
accidents which result in a person not at work (eg a patient, service user, visitor) suffering an injury and being taken directly to a hospital for treatment, or if the accident happens at a hospital, if they suffer a specified injury.
Section 3 of the Reporting injuries, diseases and dangerous occurrences in health and social care will give more information. http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hsis1.pdf
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Rank: Forum user
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RIDDOR aside, perhaps in this instance it may be just as important to look at why carers are allowing service users to stand while travelling on buses when seats are available and in light of this incident, what can be put in place to prevent similar incidents with Ted or other service users in future.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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quote=MrsSheila] Ted is an adult with learning difficulties and was out shopping with his support worker.
Ted has adamantly stated that the accident was his own fault and has learnt (the hard way) why he should sit down on the bus. His care plan has been updated as has his social worker.
I understand that the support worker is at work but cannot decide the position of Ted.
The support worker was working and Ted was under their care, there was a work activity taking place. You say Ted who has learning difficulties has learnt and so has the Support worker ? So they were doing wrong and the responsible adult should have known that. One of the reporting criteria is about the way a work activity was undertaken.
So the accident happened as she was not in control as the responsible adult. Could argue I guess the support worker thought they were of a level to make that choice themselves, as the care plan had to be updated.
Sounds like it was lucky they were on a bus and this could be classed as a RTA and RIDDOR avoided. Though for an RTA doesn't there have to actually be an accident to the vehicle. If a passenger in a vehicle stabbed themselves in the eye with a fork as they were eating in the back seat, just as the vehicle goes over a bump, would that be a RTA ? Or just stupidity ?
Ted seems more than any old member of the public, more like a child in someone's care, with that level of duty of care. Seems like a painful lesson for TED, which he should not have had to learn the hard way.
Having said that if you or I had been stood up we could have suffered the same fate, Tricky one. Is there any benefit for reporting for the HSE - No. But if you don't have to Report to the HSE would that also negate you having to report to this CQC lot.
Chris
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Rank: Forum user
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FHS,
You have just entered the deprevation of liberty arena, if Ted has capacity he is entitled to decide whether he wishes to stand or not - the carer can only advise that it would be safer to be seated or ask the bus driver to stop the vehicle, they cannot make Ted sit.
Pete,
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Rank: Forum user
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iannicolajack wrote:The following are reportable, if they arise ‘out of or in
connection with work’:
accidents which result in a person not at work (eg a patient, service user, visitor) suffering an injury and being taken directly to a hospital for treatment, or if the accident happens at a hospital, if they suffer a specified injury.
Section 3 of the Reporting injuries, diseases and dangerous occurrences in health and social care will give more information. http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hsis1.pdf
Thanks, but I think we knew that. It's the criteria that makes it a work activity that appears to be muddying the waters.
For what it's worth, Invictus's analogy at #12 says all that needs to be said
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