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Pothole  
#1 Posted : 26 October 2016 11:29:05(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Pothole

I was recently taken on board a hoist hire company to review their systems of work, methods of work etc. they are not compliant in many areas and showed a willingness to change habits. They wanted to get FORS and CHAS accreditation for example. I have advised them of the basic requirements and now they have decided they don't want to do it and continue with unsafe practices. My contract ends next month and I'm currently ensuring they all at least complete NVQ and CSCS cards but apart from that not much else. Question... where does this put me as I am knowingly walking away from a company,who don't comply and I also,have the duty to,surely report something to somebody? Any advice would be appreciated. Recently back from abroad after 25 years so I might be missing some legislation knowledge.
Ian Bell2  
#2 Posted : 26 October 2016 12:15:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

Provided your advice is correct, walk away. It's not your problem. You are not the employer/duty holder for the h&s obligations on this company.
chris42  
#3 Posted : 26 October 2016 12:26:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Make sure you have evidence of some description, to what you have advised. 

Pothole  
#4 Posted : 26 October 2016 12:55:40(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Pothole

Yeah I'm gonna get them to effectively sign a waiver that they were advised and ignored me. Started looking for a new job today. As long as i get them qualified I will have achieved something at least.
Ian Bell2  
#5 Posted : 26 October 2016 13:10:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

Don't bother - a waiver is meaningless.

Again H&S duties are on the company - not you.

jwk  
#6 Posted : 26 October 2016 13:32:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

There's no general duty to report any crime to anybody, though there are specific cases where you would have to (safeguarding for example). Certainly, whether anybody reports a breach of H&S law is up to that individual to decide,

John

JohnW  
#7 Posted : 27 October 2016 16:22:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

For a hoist company the essential compliance is LOLER. If they are not compliant I suggest you post emails to the management about that and the other breaches, that way both they and you have a record of the advice given. You may need that in the future if they ever have an HSE inspector visit; you don't want them to claim that you failed to advise or you took no action.
RayRapp  
#8 Posted : 28 October 2016 08:02:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Good advice from all, especially John W. You need to ensure you have covered yourself if it ever comes back to you and have some hard evidence your advice was ignored. Really surprising for a hoist company because any failings could be catastrophic...I would be tempted to report any serious non-compliances to the HSE, no legal duty, but morally it is the right thing to do.
Invictus  
#9 Posted : 28 October 2016 08:38:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

I think it's a difficult situation especially if you are working freelance as you don't know what contacts that they have. Say you report them, even if you don't give your name they will know who it was, they contact other companies and let them know and your work begins to dry up.

I would send the e-mails as already suggested, what would you do if you were employed bythe company full time and they were not complying?

It's a difficult one as it's moral V's Financial and you have a moral and financial duty to yourself and family.

Ian Bell2  
#10 Posted : 28 October 2016 09:15:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

Less of the warm cuddly h&s stuff.

Document what you have advised, walk away - you have a commercial arrangement with your client.

If they don't want to talk your advice, that is their choice.

Walk away, find another client.

If it all went pear shaped, all the HSE & Courts would be interested in, would be the criminal law duties etc.

Hally  
#11 Posted : 28 October 2016 14:16:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hally

Doubt they'll get anything like CHAS or FORS by the sound of it, they will need to prove certification etc and if they aren't doing the basics they won't get work for most major companies going forward.
gpevans  
#12 Posted : 30 November 2016 14:04:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
gpevans

Originally Posted by: Ian Bell2 Go to Quoted Post

Less of the warm cuddly h&s stuff.

Document what you have advised, walk away - you have a commercial arrangement with your client.

If they don't want to talk your advice, that is their choice.

Walk away, find another client.

If it all went pear shaped, all the HSE & Courts would be interested in, would be the criminal law duties etc.

ian is spot on. i'd keep copies ofthe advice you have given and just walk away.

Waz  
#13 Posted : 01 December 2016 14:41:45(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Waz

Evidence of advice, walk away - best option.  If they don't take on board the advice, then there is nothing you can do, other than advise of the moral, legal and socio-economic duites they have to employees, clients and the public.

On the other hand, you could always contact their insurance company - am sure as a hoist company, if they are non-compliant to Loler, they would be particularly interested!!!

Seetharam  
#14 Posted : 02 December 2016 09:02:33(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Seetharam

Make sure that you have an evidence

Route66  
#15 Posted : 12 January 2017 12:27:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Route66

Sorry I'm a little late to this topic.

What has to be remembered and hasn't been mentioned above, is the IOSH Code of Conduct: 4.6 Inform any person overruling or neglecting their professional advice of the potential adverse consequences and keep a written record of the date, time and nature of this action.

However, in expansion of that statement, the guidance states:

In a situation where you have a genuine concern that death or serious injury might result, then the right thing to do is contact an enforcement agency such as the Health and Safety Executive (HSE). You are expected to “do the right thing” regardless of the possible cost to you. So if you think lives are at risk, there is a Moral and Professional case that you should report.

In the last 5 years, I have twice reported non-clients to their local Fire Service after I have raised concerns with the relevant Responsible Person and been rebuffed. The first was a Methodist Church which saw no problems expecting people, including elderly congregation members and Sunday School Children, to evacuate from upstairs via a Victorian Sash window and a vertical hooped ladder (amongst other concerns).

More recently, I reported a major High St Supermarket whose head office H&S Dept saw no problems with a Fire Exit in a store which has several issues - their reasoning being 'it has always been like that'.

In both cases the FRS supported my concerns and gave strong advice to the organisations. The Church were told they must have somebody on Fire Watch whenever the upstairs was in use, pending a suitable Fire Risk Assessment and completion of it's recommendations.They were lucky not to have an Enforcement Notice. I had been at the Church premises to conduct some training for a client who had use of some rooms there. After this incident, the client never used me for any other training.

Was there a connection? Who knows, but I'm glad I made the call, because if there had been a fire at that church premises and people had died, I didn't want to the be the person who had looked the other way.

grizzadams2110@yahoo.co.uk  
#16 Posted : 23 January 2017 16:28:08(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
grizzadams2110@yahoo.co.uk

I sympathise greatly. I resigned from a Stonemason/Construction company in Northern Ireland as they were not listening to my advice re LOLER, DOC etc. I had laid out all the legal and moral implications to management and no joy. I had senior director's obstructing insurance LOLER Inspections....that was the final straw.

Document everything you have advised and move on. Not easy but if it goes wrong guess who is in the firing line? As you know your job is to advise on significant risks, if they don't grasp it, it's very difficult. Yes, you have a duty but you can't change the world.

Edited by user 23 January 2017 16:31:59(UTC)  | Reason: spelling

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