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mike52  
#1 Posted : 23 June 2020 10:09:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mike52

I am interested in your opinion on whether all the work and stress required to gain CMIOSH status is worth it. After all, going by many comments on her employers agencies etc seem unaware of H&S qualifications. Also IOSH themselves seem to do little to try to promote their role publically. There is also the fact that anyone can claim to be a H&S professional without qualifications.i do not hold CMIOSH before I am asked


Mike
hopeful  
#2 Posted : 23 June 2020 11:54:16(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hopeful

Personally yes I think it is. It gives me a professional standing amongst my peers at work. I have found that people who dont understand H&S require this as assurance that they have a competent expert and I also believe it helps support if you are being investigated by enforcing authorities that you have knowledge and experience.

It really depends on your career aspirations and the market for jobs in that area.

Ian Bell2  
#3 Posted : 23 June 2020 12:01:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

It depends... in the early part of your career yes, it helps to get job interviews. Later on not so important or if you do other safety roles, especially within technically roles than CMIOSH matters not as STEM qualifications are more important.

Wailes900134  
#4 Posted : 23 June 2020 13:19:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Wailes900134

Below is the text from the proposal arising out of the grade review currently being consulted upon. I think this will make becoming Chartered easier for a few, harder for some, potentially impossible for many as generally these requirements would only be met by one post holder in a large company at any one time. ...but one would hope that the remuneration for such roles would indeed make it worthwhile.

A Chartered Member will be able to:

Act as the visible leader of the OSH function and be a senior responsible person with accountability for the health, safety and wellbeing of the organisation.

Interface with the wider organisation, its customers and suppliers, represent the OSH requirements at senior management level and provide input to board level discussions.

Participate in business strategy aligning the OSH requirements with the organisation, its vision, mission and objectives.

Have responsibility and accountability for the OSH performance and its impact on business performance, quality outputs and minimising organisational disruption and risk.

Ultimately a Chartered Member is equipped to be a policy driver and owner, with responsibility for total resource optimisation of the Function

N Hancock  
#5 Posted : 23 June 2020 14:45:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
N Hancock

In my case no it wasnt.   Hopefully it will help me when I move on to a new role.

peter gotch  
#6 Posted : 23 June 2020 14:51:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Wailes highlights lots of text in the proposed regrading that means that the rare CMIOSH should reasonably expect at least a six figure remuneration package.

With all those responsibilities a CMIOSH in Great Britain might reasonably expect that when their organisation makes a big mistake and is prosecuted then they are likely to end up in the dock at the same time via Sections 36 or 37 of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974.

After all, the prosecutor might well table the new membership grade criterias (IF nodded through when these come to the vote) as evidence of what that CMIOSH should have done.

Now with the newish Sentencing Guidelines that apply to health and safety prosecutions in England and Wales (and which appear to be taken in account in Scotland), fines are now often in six figures and sometime £1m or more. 

Some organisations are so large that the Sentencing Guidelines indicate that they would need to be treated on a case by case basis where a fine of well over £10m might become relatively common.

So, what penalty might this CMIOSH expect? 

If paid less than £100k (or perhaps much, much more)  would they want to take the risk?

Have they paid off their mortgage with enough equity in their profit to pay the fine? If yes, do they need to seriously top up their pension fund? If no, should they file for bankruptcy?

When this Superman (or Superwoman) is fined £500,000, how many Chartered Members will resign from IOSH in a hurry?

...or demand to be immediately downgraded?!?!

Of course exactly the same principles to anyone who attains or retains Chartered Fellowship!

IOSH could revisit the regrading proposals and remove all the stuff that expects an OSH practitioner to take responsibility for duties placed on others. Let those with the financial clout face the music?

Edited by user 23 June 2020 14:53:09(UTC)  | Reason: Grammar

thanks 7 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
Connor35037 on 23/06/2020(UTC), A Kurdziel on 24/06/2020(UTC), Holliday42333 on 25/06/2020(UTC), hoosier on 25/06/2020(UTC), aud on 02/07/2020(UTC), webstar on 03/09/2020(UTC), Swygart25604 on 22/10/2020(UTC)
Mark-W  
#7 Posted : 23 June 2020 14:53:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mark-W

So if I'm reading that right, it makes it almost impossible for a consultant like myself to become chartered. All my clients don't let me near policy or any decision maing positions. I offer advice and then they choose to either accept and implement or ignore.

thanks 2 users thanked Mark-W for this useful post.
hoosier on 25/06/2020(UTC), Wailes900134 on 25/07/2020(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#8 Posted : 24 June 2020 10:27:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Originally Posted by: Mark-W Go to Quoted Post

So if I'm reading that right, it makes it almost impossible for a consultant like myself to become chartered. All my clients don't let me near policy or any decision maing positions. I offer advice and then they choose to either accept and implement or ignore.


Mark

Many of us raised our concerns with the proposal – while in
an ideal world that’s how H&S professionals would be viewed many of us are
working with organisations that do not share that view. Are we less entitled to
be CMIOSH while we try to raise the profile of our profession than those working
with enlightened companies?

I would never have gained CMIOSH under those proposals!

Is it worth the effort of gaining? Well for me it was as it’s
a prerequisite for my current role - and while its not a 6 figure salary its significantly better than what I was on before.


Wailes900134  
#9 Posted : 24 June 2020 10:55:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Wailes900134

I would never have gained CMIOSH under those proposals!


Brian, will you be able to meet the new requirements within the 1 year grace period proposed?

If not will demotion to CMIOSH "Certified rather than Chartered" effect your employers view of you?

My thought would be that a huge proportion of current Chartered cannot possibly bridge the gap and will drop down. When this happens the recruiters who currently tell employers waht they need will start telling them they need the people who are there (certified) and the whole process will have served to merely downgrade thousands of practitioners in the attempt to woo a few budget holders...

thanks 2 users thanked Wailes900134 for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 24/06/2020(UTC), hoosier on 25/06/2020(UTC)
peter gotch  
#10 Posted : 24 June 2020 13:35:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

For those who follow the Dominic Cumming line of thinking about things the "small print" is in the words:

A Chartered Member will be able to:

So, you don't actually have to do all these things but be "able to" if:

1. You do them

2. You have done them

3. You were given the position and authority to do them

Problem is that many of us read the proposals and didn't notice the "small print".

If it is necessary to read "small print" to conclude that a document makes sense, then it is time to amend the document.

thanks 2 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 24/06/2020(UTC), hoosier on 25/06/2020(UTC)
stevedm  
#11 Posted : 24 June 2020 14:11:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

I agree with Ian ...maybe ok in your early years but later STEM is more important.....legal liability it is your NeBOSH that is accepted as competence not you membership of an institution...it is my BSc And current cpd ....and from what I’ve seen on the public discussion forums membership and competency are two different things :)...
Wailes900134  
#12 Posted : 24 June 2020 14:12:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Wailes900134

Ah yes Peter the beloved "small print"....

If you cannot evidence you have done said role for three years you can indeed opt to establish via a review that you "could do" it if required.... That review "according to the FAQ's" and I guess other small print, is a thorough affair designed to test people who've held such posts for five years...

So, either have the post for three years or alternatively convince a rigorous process that you could have held one for five years.... you couldn't make it up.

I'm wondering about leaving the deckchairs where they are and going to listen to the band in the hope that the iceberg will melt on its own before we hit it.

thanks 1 user thanked Wailes900134 for this useful post.
hoosier on 25/06/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#13 Posted : 24 June 2020 23:02:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: Wailes900134 Go to Quoted Post
If not will demotion to CMIOSH "Certified rather than Chartered" effect your employers view of you?

Now there is a question... recruiters typically refer to "Certificate" as a way of indicating the nebosh General Certificate not a step back forced upon an individual with many years H&S experience by a poorly considered grade review. 

Roundtuit  
#14 Posted : 24 June 2020 23:02:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: Wailes900134 Go to Quoted Post
If not will demotion to CMIOSH "Certified rather than Chartered" effect your employers view of you?

Now there is a question... recruiters typically refer to "Certificate" as a way of indicating the nebosh General Certificate not a step back forced upon an individual with many years H&S experience by a poorly considered grade review. 

hoosier  
#15 Posted : 25 June 2020 12:53:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hoosier

Originally Posted by: Wailes900134 Go to Quoted Post

I'm wondering about leaving the deckchairs where they are and going to listen to the band in the hope that the iceberg will melt on its own before we hit it.


That is too funny, providing the laugh at the start of the day. Thanks 

neil88  
#16 Posted : 26 June 2020 01:36:28(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
neil88

Originally Posted by: mike52 Go to Quoted Post
I am interested in your opinion on whether all the work and stress required to gain CMIOSH status is worth it. After all, going by many comments on her employers agencies etc seem unaware of H&S qualifications. Also IOSH themselves seem to do little to try to promote their role publically. There is also the fact that anyone can claim to be a H&S professional without qualifications.i do not hold CMIOSH before I am asked


Mike

If you are mid-career level and work for a company with non-trivial safety risks then the CMIOSH process is neither difficult nor stressful.   It is a time consuming though to collect and organise the evidence.

To put it into perspective, the work-related projects you are delivering or have delivered will be much more complex. The PRI is by far the easiest part as you will have done lots of training and public speaking in the past. 

At the most basic level you could see it as a professional challenge but whether it is worth it depends on you, your industry and your peer group. 

thanks 1 user thanked neil88 for this useful post.
Wailes900134 on 26/06/2020(UTC)
craigroberts76  
#17 Posted : 26 June 2020 07:29:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
craigroberts76

I've personally gone for it as all the jobs I've been looking at for a move (sub £50K) are pretty much insisting on CMIOSH.  I'm now the highest qualified in our company and I'm trying to educate and assert my decisions within the company which isnt always easy or appreciated, but as i tell them, its my career, name and possible life on the line if they dont help to comply.

Wailes900134  
#18 Posted : 26 June 2020 09:12:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Wailes900134

Originally Posted by: craigroberts76 Go to Quoted Post

I'm now the highest qualified in our company and I'm trying to educate and assert my decisions within the company which isnt always easy or appreciated, but as i tell them, its my career, name and possible life on the line if they dont help to comply.


You mean highest qualified in H&S in the company? I presume The heads of functions are all suitably equiped with the prerequisites for their core disciplines too? It is these "new peers" who will help (or impede) the integration of safety as a successful component of a company and the need to influence and secure their support cannot be underplayed. With the credibility of your core capability in OSH as your foundation developing that influence should change the dynamic of the "educate and assert" challenges they face.

peter gotch  
#19 Posted : 26 June 2020 10:58:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Neil 

I agree with your view that if you deal with some significant risks then attaining CMIOSH under the existing membership framework should not be TOO taxing, though when starting at the bottom of the IOSH ladder, heavily dependent on those you report to being prepared to let you stretch your experience with cautious oversight.

So, many years ago I asked my part time secretary to do the NEBOSH General Certificate. I sold it in the company on the basis that they would be a better gatekeeper and deal with many of the more trivial enquiries that a very small H&S Department was getting day to day. I wasn't particularly surprised when they then decided that they wanted a career change, so I had to sell that to the business as well. So, it was away from the office and on to construction sites and even a trip to the Falkland Islands to co-deliver IOSH Managing Safely. Didn't take them that long to put together an NVQ porfolio and the route to CMIOSH.

However, the discourse on this thread has moved somewhat away from the original question and perhaps should now be posed as "Would it be worth going for CMIOSH if the new membership proposals are rubber stamped?"

If, so then the basis of your answer to the original question would be likely to change fundamentally.

Do you have the necessary financial clout to oversee your organisation's compliance? along with all the other criteria that Wailes has posted?

If not, then you could not have attained and cannot now retain your CMIOSH.......

UNLESS you decide to apply the small print interpretation that I gave earlier.

AND for someone moving up the ladder, not only would some panel have to accept my small print analysis, but also have to be convinced that if given the tools, you could fulfil all the criteria that Wailes has mentioned.

Those many years ago, I had budgetary control to decide to pay for someone's NEBOSH Certificate fees. I did not have the authority to send someone away from their day job for 3 weeks. I had to seek approval for that.

Now various of us have made submissions on either the IOSH Competency framework document and/or the membership regrading proposals arguing, inter alia that:

1. IOSH should not be seen as supporting the concept that an H&S professional should be responsible for ensuring that a duty holder (usually their employer) complies - that goes against what HSE and IOSH having been saying for decades

2. Many CMIOSH members and those working towards that grade apply their minds to complex scenarios where their input into difficult risk assessment decision merits Chartered status. You should not need to be the one who submits all policy documents for approval (though you might be a key player in the drafting of those documents!)

Applying 1 and 2 in the current pandemic....

For many organisations (whether or not they recognise it) the single greatest risk is Work Related Stress. Many of these organisations are currently considering (or have considered) putting people on furlough or at risk of redundancy. However, well or not the organisation might be managing Work Related Stress, you wouldn't want to exacerbate this, would you? Will the H&S Director (or whatever title) decide on furlough or redundancies? Probably not - very unlikely to have the executive authority, and usually wouldn't be expected to have this (unless perhaps they run an H&S Consultancy business!)

But that person is likely to be called on to help in assessing when it is safe enough to let people return to their work and with what precautions in place, some of which might significantly affect the bottom line. Lots of CPD on offer with that!! 

P

thanks 3 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
hoosier on 26/06/2020(UTC), Wailes900134 on 30/06/2020(UTC), aud on 02/07/2020(UTC)
neil88  
#20 Posted : 02 July 2020 06:04:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
neil88

Hi Peter,  yes I was responding to the original question.  Thanks

geordierfc  
#21 Posted : 03 July 2020 04:29:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
geordierfc

Personally reading some of the comments on here some folk forget it is the employer who will be held accountable, a health and safety advisor, manager etc works for the employer (unless self employed consultant), is in essence advising the employer and employees.

If the employer or employee fail to act on that advice and do their own thing, then it will be them who will face the wrath, in my opinion department line managers should be IOSH quailified as a minnimum, and should be managing their arrangements for health and safety, such as risk management and safe systems of work, the health and safety advisor/mangaer offers them advice on how to do it and audits their performance............

My opinion.............

stevedm  
#22 Posted : 03 July 2020 09:19:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

Originally Posted by: geordierfc Go to Quoted Post

Personally reading some of the comments on here some folk forget it is the employer who will be held accountable, a health and safety advisor, manager etc works for the employer (unless self employed consultant), is in essence advising the employer and employees.

If the employer or employee fail to act on that advice and do their own thing, then it will be them who will face the wrath, in my opinion department line managers should be IOSH quailified as a minnimum, and should be managing their arrangements for health and safety, such as risk management and safe systems of work, the health and safety advisor/mangaer offers them advice on how to do it and audits their performance............

My opinion.............


but remember...if you give good advice and the employer fails to take note they will be liable....you give bad advice and the employer does it then you are liable...

Holliday42333  
#23 Posted : 03 July 2020 11:12:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: geordierfc Go to Quoted Post

Personally reading some of the comments on here some folk forget it is the employer who will be held accountable, a health and safety advisor, manager etc works for the employer (unless self employed consultant), is in essence advising the employer and employees.

If the employer or employee fail to act on that advice and do their own thing, then it will be them who will face the wrath, in my opinion department line managers should be IOSH quailified as a minnimum, and should be managing their arrangements for health and safety, such as risk management and safe systems of work, the health and safety advisor/mangaer offers them advice on how to do it and audits their performance............

My opinion.............


but remember...... the reason for the comments regarding accountability are due to content of the proposed competency framework and membership review which very much suggest accountability for the H&S Advisor
thanks 1 user thanked Holliday42333 for this useful post.
Wailes900134 on 03/07/2020(UTC)
Lawlee45239  
#24 Posted : 10 November 2020 12:23:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

Hi All,

Can I ask what you mean by STEM qualifications? 

Wailes900134  
#25 Posted : 10 November 2020 13:28:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Wailes900134

Originally Posted by: Lawlee45239 Go to Quoted Post
Hi All,Can I ask what you mean by STEM qualifications?


Science, Technology, Engineering, Maths.... definitely not to be confused with “Sales Trained Ego Monkeys”!
Lawlee45239  
#26 Posted : 10 November 2020 13:34:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

Originally Posted by: Wailes900134 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Lawlee45239 Go to Quoted Post
Hi All,Can I ask what you mean by STEM qualifications?


Science, Technology, Engineering, Maths.... definitely not to be confused with “Sales Trained Ego Monkeys”!

Hahaha !

I know its science, tech, eng & maths, I should have extended by question apologies! As in a diploma/degree/masters qualification in any of said fields? 

I am currently after rejoining (again) and am taking stock on wheather or not I should proceed.

peter gotch  
#27 Posted : 10 November 2020 14:47:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Lawlee, I don't think that qualifications in STEM (either interpretation!) are necessary.

Health and safety by its nature is multi-multi-disciplinary and "no man is an island", though I can see that for some roles STEM qualification might be sometimes, but not always, an advantage.

When I joined the HSE, it had a policy of not allowing one near the sector that one had been working in until all preconceptions had been firmly put to bed. In my case that meant that I didn't inspect a large engineering factory for about 10 years. My half a degree in STEM (Production Engineering and Economics) was helpful, but so was the half a degree in a social science subject.

So, it's about the ability to know one's own limitations and ask "stupid questions". If you actually know the right answers to some of those QQ, it is much easier to assess the validity of the answers to the QQ that you don't know the correct answers.

Then whatever the role, the health and safety professional is always likely to be coming across scenarios with which they have limited familiarity, so it's about collaborating with those planning and executing whatever is to be done. Talking to them, posing QQ and coming up with solutions.

Sometimes that takes a philosopher, sometimes a psychologist, sometimes a STEMmer, sometimes something completely different.

Wailes900134  
#28 Posted : 10 November 2020 15:04:28(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Wailes900134

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post
Lawlee, I don't think that qualifications in STEM (either interpretation!) are necessary.

Sometimes that takes a philosopher, sometimes a psychologist, sometimes a STEMmer, sometimes something completely different.



...but NEVER a Sales Trained Ego Monkey! Even one who claims to be all of the above and more!
thanks 1 user thanked Wailes900134 for this useful post.
peter gotch on 10/11/2020(UTC)
chris.packham  
#29 Posted : 13 November 2020 22:52:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Health and safety is such a broad field that no-one can be an expert in every aspect. What is important, and perhaps difficult, is to recognise the limits of one's own expertise and thus when to seek support from others. I have specialised now for 40 years in one particular aspect of health and safety and am still learning. Indeed, in my field (a specialised aspect of health) the more the science develops the more we recognise how much we still have to learn - also with only limited knowledge how easy it is to reach conclusions that may appear logical but that are not borne out by the scientific evidence. 

peter gotch  
#30 Posted : 14 November 2020 15:05:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Chris

One of the interesting aspects of the Membership Restructuring proposals if these are implemented will be to see how IOSH would view the level of membership that is appropriate for a subject matter expert like you, and thence, how "APEL" pans out.

O'Donnell54548  
#31 Posted : 23 November 2020 19:00:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
O'Donnell54548

You may as well ask is joining IOSH worth the effort/expense? Because both are dependent on what you are prepared to put in. If you just want the letters after your name to apply for jobs, then yes it is worth it as many employers (who do not even know what it is) make it an essiential requirement.

If you want to expand your knowledge and experience, beyond academia, and be recognised for your achievements by your peers then yes it is worth it.

Hope this clarifies the position

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