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Holliday42333  
#1361 Posted : 15 February 2021 07:54:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: The Iron Chicken Go to Quoted Post

Pointless table about Tony Blair donations

Remind me - who is pushing vaccinations and 'health passports'?

Yes Tony Blair is pushing vaccine passports but as he spends the majority of his time milking middle-eastern countries for money I, for one, am struggling to see the relevence.  

CptBeaky  
#1362 Posted : 15 February 2021 09:03:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Sometimes a mind is so open a person's brains can fall out.

Moving on. Does anybody have an  idea what the exit plan is for businesses yet? Are we waiting for Boris to give a speech about how the cavalry has arrived and we can all go back to licking each other? Or are people making their own coices as to when/how to revert back to more normal practises?

That being said, can we please keep social distancing in public? I love not have some neck bearded, mouth breather coming uncomfortably close to me when I am walking the dog.

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biker1 on 15/02/2021(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#1363 Posted : 15 February 2021 09:29:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

In other useless facts & figures it was reported over the weekend that of those who tested positive for Covid 53% had been to a supermarket.

As to the exit strategy that all depends upon which minister and member of the opposition you are listening to - I currently like the one where we are all stuck at home until we collect a unique vaccine character for every jab available and when we get the full set our phone app magically opens a whole new world of international quaranteening and refused arrival.

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A Kurdziel on 15/02/2021(UTC), John Murray on 15/02/2021(UTC), A Kurdziel on 15/02/2021(UTC), John Murray on 15/02/2021(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#1364 Posted : 15 February 2021 09:29:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

In other useless facts & figures it was reported over the weekend that of those who tested positive for Covid 53% had been to a supermarket.

As to the exit strategy that all depends upon which minister and member of the opposition you are listening to - I currently like the one where we are all stuck at home until we collect a unique vaccine character for every jab available and when we get the full set our phone app magically opens a whole new world of international quaranteening and refused arrival.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 15/02/2021(UTC), John Murray on 15/02/2021(UTC), A Kurdziel on 15/02/2021(UTC), John Murray on 15/02/2021(UTC)
John Murray  
#1365 Posted : 15 February 2021 10:19:23(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post
In other useless facts &amp; figures it was reported over the weekend that of those who tested positive for Covid 53% had been to a supermarket.As to the exit strategy that all depends upon which minister and member of the opposition you are listening to - I currently like the one where we are all stuck at home until we collect a unique vaccine character for every jab available and when we get the full set our phone app magically opens a whole new world of international quaranteening and refused arrival.
They still seem unable to get their heads around the scenario where immunity lasts a short time.
A Kurdziel  
#1366 Posted : 15 February 2021 10:37:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Forget conspiracies, all we need to do is to understand the gap between how democracies are supposed to work and how they actually work.

What is supposed to happen is that a  politician stands up and says “I can solve these life problems, including unemployment,  crime, accidents and ill health due to work covid by carrying out and supporting a particular course of action. We the voters if we think this is a good approach then vote for that politician who then gets into office and carries out those policies and if we like the result for vote for them the next time. Simples…

Except that is not how it works. It’s a complicated world out there and we the voters only engage in those bits that effect us everyday. Everybody complains about taxes and any politician who offers to cut them will get a certain amount of support. If we have kids we worry about school, although a lot of use see it more as a child minding service rather an investment in the future,  if we live somewhere where crime is seen as a problem, we tend to support law and order and if we have been adversely effected by workplace  accidents or illness we prioritise health and safety. Others might see this prioritising as waste of their tax money.

Politicians have to negotiate between the different desires of different parts of the electorate and they need to gather together enough people to support them to get elected.  The  past 30 years or so has seen the rise of  “professional” politicians, people whose main skill is simply getting themselves elected. There are not really interested in any particular programme of action, just sitting behind that desk exercising that power is enough for them. Many believe that the world is actually too complicated to really manage and that in reality the system largely runs itself and the best thing to do is to make grandiose  gestures, which don’t really make a difference but project the right image and make the politician look good.

Of course sometimes the real world intrudes and then the politicians suddenly realise that what they say and  do is vitally important.

The pandemic is a classic example of this; the possibility of a respiratory virus emerging in Asia and creating a global pandemic was definitely being discussed in government circles, but nobody really was that bothered: it was not regarded as a vote winner and as such there was no serious attempt prepare for it: no stockpiling of PPE,  no creating of a surge capacity in testing labs to deal with an outbreak and no real planning of what to and exit strategy.

A key part of the  planning would be balancing the requirements to stop the spread of the disease while limiting damage to the economy. Instead they panicked and went through a series of knee jerks, delaying lockdown then lifting lockdown reimposing lockdown  lifting it etc. 

Yes, the politicians have been rubbish but  if  back in December 2019(just before the election) someone had said that the main aim of  government is to ensure the public health of the population of the UK, it would have attracted a yawn at best if not derision from both voters and the media. No what we wanted was a beauty contest between Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson, which is what we got and why we are where we are here today.

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CptBeaky  
#1367 Posted : 15 February 2021 10:53:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

That is true, but I think you give the voters more credit than they deserve. Most people vote for a party, because they would never vote for the other party, no matter what either party promises. This combined with a narrative that suggests that the other party (or political wing) will fundementally change your way of life if they have power (read as tories will allow gay-bashing and spitting at poor people, or Labour will force everyone into communism) and we don't have democracies based on ideas, just fear and stubborness.

For the record I vote Green party (because of course I do), not because I expect them to win, but I feel that if enough people vote Green then the main parties may start taking enviromental issues seriously, in the hope of steal some votes from the Green party.

We knew a pandemic was coming for many years, and yet not a single political party took action to avoid it. Instead the world still subsidises animal agriculture under the guise of "affordable food". Vegetables are affordable, and no-one has ever died of "Carrot-flu". Remember Swine fever likely killed around 284,000 people, and that came from pig farms.

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A Kurdziel on 15/02/2021(UTC), nic168 on 17/02/2021(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#1368 Posted : 15 February 2021 11:12:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The latest contender for the "Biosafety Theatre" awards has just tipped their hat in the ring - DVLA now want's waist sizes for its points based system to see who can return to the office.

I do not recall Covid saying it would only affect people with XXX points, just like it does not pick on groups over six, or only lurk until 10pm....

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/dvla-staff-asked-waist-size-23500066

Roundtuit  
#1369 Posted : 15 February 2021 11:12:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The latest contender for the "Biosafety Theatre" awards has just tipped their hat in the ring - DVLA now want's waist sizes for its points based system to see who can return to the office.

I do not recall Covid saying it would only affect people with XXX points, just like it does not pick on groups over six, or only lurk until 10pm....

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/dvla-staff-asked-waist-size-23500066

biker1  
#1370 Posted : 15 February 2021 11:59:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Unfortunately, we don't have an active democracy, just the appearance of one. Policitians don't represent the electorate, they represent their parties, who employ people to persuade, cajole and threaten MPs to toe the party line in voting. Politicians don't answer direct questions, as they are too afraid of stepping out of line with the party if they gave an honest direct answer. People generally vote for the party they have always voted for, rather than look into policies and ask questions. It is a self-perpetuating two party system, made possible by the general apathy of a large proportion of the public. As for the effectiveness of MPs, this is a confirmation of the old saying that those who seek power are usually unfit to hold it. Behind all of this lies the civil servants, who are the ones who effectively run the country, and they are completely immune from the wishes of the public, and don't change much no matter who is in power. The House of Commons is effectively just a talking shop, where politicians try to score points off each other (at least, those who bother to turn up there).

Is it any wonder, therefore, that we have had an ineffective response to the pandemic on so many issues? 

CptBeaky  
#1371 Posted : 15 February 2021 12:19:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Just be glad we don't live in the utopias that a certain poultry would like us to emulate. In Belarus, for example, people protesting the government were delibrately infected with COVID during their incarceration, and then left with no treatment.

Our government hasn't tried that one yet....

A Kurdziel  
#1372 Posted : 15 February 2021 13:23:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

DVLA approach

Well that is classic example of  “HR double think” On one hand the DVLA  is trying to limit the number of people coming into work on the other hand there are voices suggesting that we get back to normal asap virus or no virus, so the HR bods have come up with this system which is no more scientific  than a lottery to decide who comes into work and who doesn’t. If they really believed in this they would pay for a professional to assess the health of each employee instead they send them a questionnaire on which, shock horror, they can lie! It like the staff survey HR have every year which usually show that people are sick and tired of staff surveys and just want to be treated like adults.   

biker1  
#1373 Posted : 15 February 2021 14:03:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

Just be glad we don't live in the utopias that a certain poultry would like us to emulate. In Belarus, for example, people protesting the government were delibrately infected with COVID during their incarceration, and then left with no treatment.

Our government hasn't tried that one yet....

Oh, don't give them ideas Cpt!

Mind you, by the time it has been argued back and forth in parliament, and then got through the treacle soup that is the governmental civil service, we'd probably be clear of the virus (for now).

Edited by user 15 February 2021 14:05:13(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

John Murray  
#1374 Posted : 15 February 2021 14:23:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post
Just be glad we don't live in the utopias that a certain poultry would like us to emulate. In Belarus, for example, people protesting the government were delibrately infected with COVID during their incarceration, and then left with no treatment. Our government hasn't tried that one yet....
Are you sure? Our govt may have got there first! Youveither assume a colossal level of complete incompetence, or a level of malicious intent. Chose which fits the facts best. After considering that the population group most affected are the same ones that cost a lot of money to maintain. If the virus only targetted politicians we would have had several magnitudes of better attention paid to everything.
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The Iron Chicken on 16/02/2021(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#1375 Posted : 15 February 2021 14:40:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Has the IOSH forum really descended to this? There are many H&S rules and guidance which many of us may not fully agree with – but in the past on this forum we have attempted to help each other understand how to best apply the guidance to specific situations. This thread has now become a mess of conspiracy theory and political infighting. What a shame IOSH has allowed this to occur by lack of moderation, they may as well tear up the forum rules.

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johnc on 15/02/2021(UTC), Roundtuit on 15/02/2021(UTC), Sharpe23621 on 16/02/2021(UTC), jonc on 18/02/2021(UTC)
biker1  
#1376 Posted : 15 February 2021 15:34:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post

Has the IOSH forum really descended to this? There are many H&S rules and guidance which many of us may not fully agree with – but in the past on this forum we have attempted to help each other understand how to best apply the guidance to specific situations. This thread has now become a mess of conspiracy theory and political infighting. What a shame IOSH has allowed this to occur by lack of moderation, they may as well tear up the forum rules.

Whilst I can acknowledge your point, Brian, this forum is surely not just about helping people to understand and apply rules and guidance. This is a general discussion section, and I think general discussion is therefore valid. Conspiracy theorists - well, their views have been discussed and challenged. As for moderation, it would be a fine judgement call as to when to intervene if people are to be allowed to voice their opinions. And opinion is a part of application of guidance in the absence of definitive guidance from the powers that be.
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The Iron Chicken on 16/02/2021(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#1377 Posted : 16 February 2021 08:29:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

OSH discussion forum - Here you can discuss health, safety and environmental issues in the broadest sense - risk management, environmental protection, healthcare, hygiene, education, quality management or business - the topics are endless

Sorry Biker i always thought this was a professional forum for matters described above - its the title bar from the forum - unfortunatley the phrase "the topics are endless" appears to be taken to the etream at the moment. I have gained a great deal of information from this site - but this thread no longer has anyplace in this forum for me.

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biker1  
#1378 Posted : 16 February 2021 10:19:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post

OSH discussion forum - Here you can discuss health, safety and environmental issues in the broadest sense - risk management, environmental protection, healthcare, hygiene, education, quality management or business - the topics are endless

Sorry Biker i always thought this was a professional forum for matters described above - its the title bar from the forum - unfortunatley the phrase "the topics are endless" appears to be taken to the etream at the moment. I have gained a great deal of information from this site - but this thread no longer has anyplace in this forum for me.

Whilst this thread has descended at times to insults, I do think the longevity of it is testament to its popularity. The subject matter is topical, affects everyone, and has strong health and safety implications. I have learned a lot from the posts, and hopefully passed on my insights and thoughts. It is, unfortunately, also an emotive subject, and many people will have personal experience of this awful pandemic. The links with public health have been debated at length, with some people disputing that it is a legitimate part of safety and health. For my part, I have always adopted an holistic approach, with the view that anything that affect the health, safety and wellbeing of people should at least attract some attention from us. Having opened the Pandora's box that is the global pandemic, it is difficult to exlude issues such as politics and government action, since they have such a strong bearing on how we address the spread of the virus and its effects. The emotive and political aspects of the subject matter have led to some inappropriate language being used at times, and I hold my hand up to this as well, but we are all affected by this crisis, and a lot of us want to discuss it. This includes discussing aspects of it, gaining information, and countering mis-information. That is the nature of the beast unfortunately.
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A Kurdziel  
#1379 Posted : 16 February 2021 10:41:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Health and Safety  is ultimately very political. Not so much in the pointless party games sense but rather in the deeper, how society works sense.  One very political question is what drives individuals and makes them function in society. Some see money as the main driver: people work to earn money, and everything is down to maximising the money they take home. Therefore any effective approach has to be money driven. Others reject this notion: people to go to work meet up and be socially engaged. Those people react to a social community based approach to H&S .

Some people think that people are basically good eggs and to achieve H&S nirvana what you need is lots of  engagement and empowerment; trust your employees and they will deliver. Other think this is crap and that the only way is strict enforcement of centrally driven rules: my way or the highway.

And so it goes…

The current pandemic has allowed people  to look at this from different points of view. It is hard to assert than anyone is 100% right- we could have had a complete and utter lockdown this time last year while waiting for vaccines to emerge or herd immunity to develop. If we had done that our economy would have gone completely belly up and we would have been having to eat cats and dogs for Christmas lunch. Alternatively we could have simply ignored it and the entire health care system would have collapsed and that would have had appalling economic and social consequences.

The governments policy was of course wrong, but we only know that because of hindsight.

The forum is about H&S but it gives us an opportunity to look at thing more deeply and go off on a tangent.  I suppose we could replace  this with something on LinkedIn but that seems to be largely about self promotion not this sort of wide ranging discussion.

H&S is not just about rules and legal interpretation (not heard much about RIDDOR recently-hurray) but how do we take those rules and make them work with real people in a real messy world.

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CptBeaky  
#1380 Posted : 16 February 2021 11:28:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

This thread may have run its course, and I am probably partially to blame. However I feel a large part of H&S is trying to get people to understand why the rules are in place. Sometimes the dangers are not immediately obvious. Sometimes hard decisions need to be made about H&S and economic viability with the workplace.  I feel this pandemic has brought that out of the workplace and firmly into the open.

That being said I feel that it is right to defend the facts of this pandemic in the same way that I would argue that LEV is a better solution when dealing with mild steel welding than a face mask. If I was met with the allegation that it is all a ruse of LEV companies, and that mild steel welding is harmless, I would argue just as strongly against that position. My concerns for the wellbeing of other hiumans does not stop at our work gate.

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Brian Hagyard  
#1381 Posted : 16 February 2021 13:45:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

I think the last 3 posts have restoured my faith in this forum, No Political Bias, No conspiracy theory, just an honest assessment that we are in unprecedented times, that harsh decions have had to be made and an application of the principles of a hierarchy of control, and resonably practicable control measures.

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biker1  
#1382 Posted : 23 February 2021 12:22:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Salvaging this thread from the outer darkness of page 2. 

I notice that schools will return on the 8th March, and we will soon be able to meet up with more people (fourth lockdown here we come?). As someone put it, it will happen in stages - meeting for a drink outside the pub, then meeting for a drink inside the pub, and by mid-June, we will be able to hug everyone and tell them we love them.

CptBeaky  
#1383 Posted : 23 February 2021 12:28:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

I was reading through a study of the "direct and indirect" impacts of COVID-19 from the government. It is a little out of date (published July 15th last year) but it estimates that on average a person dying of COVID-19 loses 10.5 years of life. That is to say we have lost over 1m human years so far in the UK. I think that is quite humbling. Imagine all the experiences that could have been had in that time.

Report

Captcha PYRE

biker1  
#1384 Posted : 23 February 2021 16:45:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

I was reading through a study of the "direct and indirect" impacts of COVID-19 from the government. It is a little out of date (published July 15th last year) but it estimates that on average a person dying of COVID-19 loses 10.5 years of life. That is to say we have lost over 1m human years so far in the UK. I think that is quite humbling. Imagine all the experiences that could have been had in that time.

Report

Captcha PYRE

Think how many politicians that could cover. On the other hand, don't.
achrn  
#1385 Posted : 23 February 2021 22:41:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

on average a person dying of COVID-19 loses 10.5 years of life

- and it's not just about loss of life.

Those who recall my father-in-law broke his hip near the peak of the recent spike (and spent 14 hours waiting for an ambulance, and more hours in the ambulance waiting to get into A&E) may care to know that while in hospital he caught covid, recovered, and has just been discharged to a nursing home.

As noted at the time, he hadn't even had a x-ray by the time that (in normal times) he should have been operated on. 

While in hospital he has not received any significant physio (a critical part of recovering from a hip replacement) and a man that was walking a couple of miles a day before he fell now needs two people to get him out of bed.

Apparently - we haven't seen him since they loaded him into the ambulance.

biker1  
#1386 Posted : 24 February 2021 10:28:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

on average a person dying of COVID-19 loses 10.5 years of life

- and it's not just about loss of life.

Those who recall my father-in-law broke his hip near the peak of the recent spike (and spent 14 hours waiting for an ambulance, and more hours in the ambulance waiting to get into A&E) may care to know that while in hospital he caught covid, recovered, and has just been discharged to a nursing home.

As noted at the time, he hadn't even had a x-ray by the time that (in normal times) he should have been operated on. 

While in hospital he has not received any significant physio (a critical part of recovering from a hip replacement) and a man that was walking a couple of miles a day before he fell now needs two people to get him out of bed.

Apparently - we haven't seen him since they loaded him into the ambulance.

That is appalling, and so sorry to learn of this. It shouldn't happen, but then the NHS teetered on the brink before the pandemic, so was badly placed to react to it. A report long before COVID cited a shortage of 7,000 doctors and 30,000 nurses. Waiting times for non-emergency operations (although it depends on your definition of non-emergency) had steadily crept up, despite the attempts to massage the figures by the government. Possible breaches of set time periods for things to happen resulted in patients being passed from one department to another. The ambulance service has been dumped on by all and sundry since GPs decided they didn't want to cover out of hours. Nightingale hospitals were hurriedly fitted out for the pandemic but there wasn't the staff to man them. It's no surprise, therefore, that the NHS is is overstretched; it was before the pandemic (the TV series 24 hours in A&E has an ironic ring to it). Hospital doctors and nurses have really stepped up to the mark and worked themselves out trying to cope, but the seeds of this crisis were planted many years ago, and successive governments have done little to address the problems.
biker1  
#1387 Posted : 24 February 2021 15:27:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

And don't even start me on the nonsense that is the current Trust system. Once upon a time, we used to have a NATIONAL health service, now it is divvied up into loads of Trusts. From time to time, the government proudly announces that so many million more has been allocated to the NHS. Sounds impressive, until you divide this up amongst the 137 plus Trusts, then it doesn't sound so impressive. Bursaries for nurses in training were stopped a few years ago, so hardly a surprise that we are short of them, as many will simply not be able to afford to train.

I had naively thought that we would have learned from the pandemic what was essential work, and who were essentail workers. It an indictment that many who carry out essential work are amongst the lowest paid in society. Meanwhile, we seem to be happy for film stars, footballers and stockbrokers to accumulate millions. As an extreme example, who would you consider more essential - film stars and footballers, or those who clean the sewers? You decide.

Roundtuit  
#1388 Posted : 25 February 2021 20:38:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

One thing that has become "herd" - the stupidity of the well intentioned

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14164916/schools-kids-age-five-masks-despite-guidelines/

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Roundtuit  
#1389 Posted : 25 February 2021 20:38:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

One thing that has become "herd" - the stupidity of the well intentioned

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14164916/schools-kids-age-five-masks-despite-guidelines/

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The Iron Chicken  
#1390 Posted : 27 February 2021 21:14:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

Quote:

This means that more people are dying beacuase of COVID-19 than the governments official number, not less. Yes the government is publishing misleading figures, but it is not in the direction you believe.

DAILY MAIL:

What IS the truth about Covid deaths? Grieving relatives along with MPs and top medics demand inquiry as families reveal MORE loved ones they believe were wrongly certified as virus victims

  • Medical experts have demanded an inquiry into the number of fatalities that have been blamed on Covid-19
  • More than 100 Daily Mail readers wrote letters after Bel Mooney revealed her father's death recorded as covid
  • Experts cited pressure on doctors to use Covid-19 as cause of death because it was ruled ‘notifiable disease’

Also from my own recent experience:

Bumped into a 77yo friend of my mother last week - she lost an 83yo friend at Christmas who went into hospital with a leaky heart valve, hospital would not operate due to her age, died with Covid on death cert following +ve test (no symptoms).

Same lady as above - her daughter-in-law's mum passed away around Christmas-time, again Covid put on death cert following +ve test, no symptoms, family objected.

Neighbour of my OH - works in local care home, confirms residents having Covid on death cert after telephone call by doctor (no GP visits, no symptoms).

Neighbour of my OH - very experienced mortuary technician, has dealt with many bodies over the last 11 months that have had Covid put on death cert that have not died from Covid as primary cause.

But mis-attribution of cause of death as 'Covid' isn't happening - right?

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SLord80 on 28/02/2021(UTC)
SLord80  
#1391 Posted : 28 February 2021 22:14:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
SLord80

Originally Posted by: The Iron Chicken Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
This means that more people are dying beacuase of COVID-19 than the governments official number, not less. Yes the government is publishing misleading figures, but it is not in the direction you believe.
DAILY MAIL: What IS the truth about Covid deaths? Grieving relatives along with MPs and top medics demand inquiry as families reveal MORE loved ones they believe were wrongly certified as virus victims
    <li>Medical experts have demanded an inquiry into the number of fatalities that have been blamed on Covid-19</li><li>More than 100 Daily Mail readers wrote letters after Bel Mooney revealed her father's death recorded as covid</li><li>Experts cited pressure on doctors to use Covid-19 as cause of death because it was ruled ‘notifiable disease’</li>
Also from my own recent experience:Bumped into a 77yo friend of my mother last week - she lost an 83yo friend at Christmas whowent into hospital with a leaky heartvalve, hospital would not operate due to her age, died with Covid on death cert following +ve test (no symptoms).Same lady as above - her daughter-in-law's mum passed away around Christmas-time, again Covid put on death cert following +ve test, no symptoms, family objected.Neighbour of my OH - works in local care home, confirms residents having Covid on death cert after telephone call by doctor (no GP visits, no symptoms).Neighbour of my OH - very experienced mortuary technician, has dealt with many bodies over the last 11 months that have had Covidput on death cert that have not died from Covid as primary cause. But mis-attribution of cause of death as 'Covid' isn'thappening -right?
And it most certainly is a National scandal. It’s nice to see this receiving media attention, albeit months later than it should’ve been.
CptBeaky  
#1392 Posted : 01 March 2021 10:02:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

"more than 100 Daily Mail Readers"

Wow, that is the most persuasive group of experts I have ever heard of!

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Holliday42333 on 01/03/2021(UTC)
Holliday42333  
#1393 Posted : 01 March 2021 10:18:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

"more than 100 Daily Mail Readers"

Wow, that is the most persuasive group of experts I have ever heard of!

As a daily mail reader (I know, I know, but in my defence we only get it on a Saturday, the day of this article, as we like the format of the TV Guide) I am NOT on eof the 100 as my mum definately died of not with Covid-19.

Interesting that both IronChicken and SLord80 have many times accused others of falling for mainstream media propoganda and are now using an element of mainstream media as a reference source.

Brian Hagyard  
#1394 Posted : 01 March 2021 10:18:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

"But mis-attribution of cause of death as 'Covid' isn'thappening -right?"

I dont think those senisble people amugst us have ever denied that - And how do you know it was the "leaky heart valve" and not the "Covid" that killed her? Probably a combination of both but heaven forbid that we accepted that!

So on the basis of a demands of a few daily mail readers lets end all our precautins now and fill up the hospital beads with Covid cases, people on respirators etc - and then loo all the people that die of heart attacks, cencer etc accuratly because we have no where to traet them.

The excess death rate this last year and this year is an undenable fact - unless the Ferouse Fool and his crowd are now say that we have been buring people who have not died - and the only thing different is the emergance of the COVID virus.

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Holliday42333 on 01/03/2021(UTC)
biker1  
#1395 Posted : 01 March 2021 11:00:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

I think those who deny the effects of COVID on deaths, on the basis that it was mentioned on the death certificate but their death could be attributed to other things, are missing a fundamental point. There are many conditions that in themselves might not be fatal, but the effects on the body hasten their deaths or exacerbate existing conditions. People do no die from AIDS as such, but from other things that the body would have fought off were it not for AIDS. The same can be said for other things. Multiple Sclerosis is not in itself fatal, but people can die from complications that wouldn't have occured were it not for this. Even flu has effects on respiration that can result in deaths, that wouldn't have happened otherwise. That is the nature of many viruses and other conditions. Is it therefore wrong to record COVID as a contributory cause of death? Did the person die exclusively from COVID? The distinction is pretty meaningless.

Are the conspiracy theorists saying that no-one has died as a result of COVID? That would fly in the face of established science, apart from being an appalling insult to the families and friends of those who have died. Perhaps if they could get access to intensive care units filled with COVID cases, not to mention the huge number of people suffering at home, they could better decide if it is a genuine problem or just some vague conspiracy to mislead people. One thing the conspiracy theorists are less than forthcoming on is this: if it is a global conspiracy to control and enslave people, to what purpose? The econmony has been decimated, the health services have been overwhelmed, people have lost their livelihoods, many sectors of business might well never recover. So what is the goal of such a conspiracy? Any conspiracy must have an ultimate goal to justify it. If it was confined to one country, it might be more believable, but across the world? With the range of cultures and political systems, is it even possible that there could be a global purpose to a consipiracy?

No doubt there have been many laws that could be construed as a conspiracy if the reason for them was misunderstood. Some laws have met with opposition on the grounds of personal freedom, and lawmakers have not always been consistent and logical, influenced by idealogy, but by and large there has been a demonstrable benefit for the laws, if we discount the personal agendas of dictators.

To cite media reports as representing truth is to misunderstand the nature of popular media. The truth doesn't always sell newspapers, something we are all too familiar with in the field of health and safety.

thanks 3 users thanked biker1 for this useful post.
Holliday42333 on 01/03/2021(UTC), chris.packham on 01/03/2021(UTC), Brian Hagyard on 01/03/2021(UTC)
achrn  
#1396 Posted : 01 March 2021 11:11:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post

I think those who deny the effects of COVID on deaths, ... are missing a fundamental point.

It all seems to me rather like claiming that falls from height aren't dangerous on the grounds that the falling is fine, it's the the stop at the bottom that kills you.

thanks 6 users thanked achrn for this useful post.
Holliday42333 on 01/03/2021(UTC), Roundtuit on 01/03/2021(UTC), chris.packham on 01/03/2021(UTC), Brian Hagyard on 01/03/2021(UTC), CptBeaky on 01/03/2021(UTC), biker1 on 02/03/2021(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#1397 Posted : 01 March 2021 12:53:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56234898

Covid-19: Critical care beds shortage prompts calls for review

The UK has 7.3 critical care beds per 100,000 people, compared to Germany's 33.8 and the US's 34.3, analysis found.

Perhapse this can go some way to explaining some of the deaths - I belive that COVID has been responsible for the excess deaths the last 2 years - directly or indirectly, and that if we had just done nothing the rate would have been much higher!

Have mistakes been made yes - should we have just treated it like a bad flu virus! Absolutly not!

biker1  
#1398 Posted : 01 March 2021 15:10:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56234898

Covid-19: Critical care beds shortage prompts calls for review

The UK has 7.3 critical care beds per 100,000 people, compared to Germany's 33.8 and the US's 34.3, analysis found.

Perhapse this can go some way to explaining some of the deaths - I belive that COVID has been responsible for the excess deaths the last 2 years - directly or indirectly, and that if we had just done nothing the rate would have been much higher!

Have mistakes been made yes - should we have just treated it like a bad flu virus! Absolutly not!

Good point Brian, I saw that item too. Our NHS was in a poor state to deal with the pandemic, and these figures confirm how poor. Over twenty years ago, my wife suffered a bad fall that put her in a coma. After being taken to our local hospital, she was then taken to a hospital fifty miles away, because the MRI scanner wasn't working at our local hospital. She was then transferred to another hospital fifty miles away because there were no intensive care beds available at our local one. I don't think the situation with such issues has got any better in the intervening period, worse if anything. This is a crisis that was almost predictable, and the NHS have done a fantastic job with the resources they have. I hope one thing that comes out of this pandemic is the realisation that we need to invest properly in our healthcare system, with suitable action to follow. 
The Iron Chicken  
#1399 Posted : 02 March 2021 06:55:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post

"But mis-attribution of cause of death as 'Covid' isn'thappening -right?"

I dont think those senisble people amugst us have ever denied that - And how do you know it was the "leaky heart valve" and not the "Covid" that killed her? Probably a combination of both but heaven forbid that we accepted that!

Because she had NO SYMPTOMS of acute respiratory disease, just a +ve test result for some variety of coronavirus (which has a high probability of being a false positive).

So on the basis of a demands of a few daily mail readers lets end all our precautins now and fill up the hospital beads with Covid cases, people on respirators etc - and then loo all the people that die of heart attacks, cencer etc accuratly because we have no where to traet them.

Do you consider those who believe their loved one's cause of death was mis-attributed to 'Covid' should be denied a proper investigation?

What about those people dying of heart attackes, cancer, etc. because they have been denied timely diagnosis and treatment?

The excess death rate this last year and this year is an undenable fact - unless the Ferouse Fool and his crowd are now say that we have been buring people who have not died - and the only thing different is the emergance of the COVID virus.

As I have said before, the ONS age-standardised death rate for 2020 is comparable with that of 2010 / 2011, when the decline levelled off.

biker1  
#1400 Posted : 04 March 2021 12:11:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

As always, very selective in what is responded to. Perhaps they work in the media; after all, a common criticism is that they never let the truth get in the way of a good story. 

Although since I would probably not pass a capacity test, perhaps I should not be commenting on such things.

CptBeaky  
#1401 Posted : 04 March 2021 12:43:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

I moved on. The goal posts have been moved so many times that game could be worlwide by now. Everytime a fact is put forward it is simply ignored and the original lie is just repeated. I find it humourous that I am accused of being a government sycophant, despite it being very obvious that I, along with many others, feel that this government has completely botched the pandemic response upto the point they got the vaccines out.

And to be fair, as positive as the vaccine drive has been, we have to remember it was on the back of a massive gamble that appears to have paid off. If the single dose had not worked, what was plan B?

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biker1 on 04/03/2021(UTC)
peter gotch  
#1402 Posted : 04 March 2021 13:59:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Cpt Beaky - ANYONE here who thinks that it is a good idea to do SOMETHING about a Covid theat is apparently wedded to HM Government and thinks that Boris and Matt Hancock et al have done a good job (despite numerous comments throughout the course of this thread which indicate that we might think differently).

Which means that almost all those who have contributed to this thread are Government sycophants!!

Note to self: Must remember to vote for the Conservative etc Party in the May Holyrood elections.

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biker1 on 04/03/2021(UTC)
biker1  
#1403 Posted : 04 March 2021 14:07:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Yes, we are all obviously government lackies, who can't see the wood for the trees. There really is no hope for us. I suppose I could take the capacity test that Trump did. If he can pass it, perhaps there's hope for me yet.

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