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billynxn  
#1 Posted : 10 November 2023 16:31:04(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
billynxn

Hi all,

I have been asked to be part of a risk assessment that is specifically to be used to allow the need to carry out refresher training for maintenance staff to be extended or dropped all together.

I have looked, and happy to be proven wrong, but I have not been able to find accurate information that states refresher training must be carried out annually, every two years etc. 

The proposal is that staff are already trained in COSHH, Asbestos, Electrical works etc. and therefore do not require refresher training as there has not been any significant change to the risk, no new technology and so on.

The bottom line is that this is potentially a massive cost saving exercise and it has been difficult to argue as the legislation just recommends refresher training.

I myself do not fully support this approach.

My concern is how the HSE would perceive that if an incident occurred.

Thanks in advance

peter gotch  
#2 Posted : 10 November 2023 17:04:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Billy

However tempting it is I would not base processes for managing health and safety on what the regulator might way if things go wrong.

Refresher training has been discussed at intermittent intervals on these Forums.

UK legislation has moved on from the days of many prescriptive and proscriptive requirements either in legislation or supporting guidance to a "goal-setting" regime where, usually, you have to consider what is and is NOT reasonably practicable.

Hence there are very few scenarios where either the law or guidance says You MUST provide a person doing this, with specific training", and even fewer where there is clear guidance to say you must refresh that training at specific intervals, though some training providers would try and tell you otherwise - but they would, wouldn't they?!?

The extent to which refresher training is required is heavily dependent on the ongoing competence of someone to do each of their tasks and that in turn depends on how effective the initial training was, how well it was taken on board by the learner, and whether the key content of the training has been reinforced by practice.

So, as example, you could train someone up to e.g. operate a fork truck, but unless the person then regularly operates a fork truck, they are unlikely to retain the knowledge from the training for very long. Hence training just in case someone might do a task is often likely to be a waste of resources.

In contrast, if that person does the training, then operates a fork truck every day of their working life, and is supervised in operating the fork truck safely, what benefit do you get from refresher training one, two or three years down the line UNLESS something changes?

How many training course (on whatever topic) did you attend say 10 years ago then have no opportunity to put the learning into practice? How much do you still remember?!?!

Edited by user 10 November 2023 17:06:12(UTC)  | Reason: Fingers out of sync when touch typing

thanks 3 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
Kate on 10/11/2023(UTC), A Kurdziel on 13/11/2023(UTC), billynxn on 14/11/2023(UTC)
Kate  
#3 Posted : 10 November 2023 17:28:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

What often makes refresher training pointless is that it is just a repeat of the original training at arbitrary intervals.  It's very hit and miss as to whether this has any value.  At most it will remind people of things they had forgotten or hadn't paid attention to the first time.  And that only if they can somehow be interested enough to pay attention when they have been through this before.

What can have value is a refresher that builds on the original training.  If someone has had training about the principles of COSHH, for example, there can be value in having a refresher which takes more of a discussion format, where examples of COSHH practice are explored from the trainees' own experience ("Have any of you dealt with a spill since the training?  How did that go?  How would the rest of you want to handle that?") or using a quiz format as a basis ("What does this hazard label mean?  OK you recognise that as corrosive.  What would you be concerned about with a corrosive substance?  Now what does this hazard label mean?  OK, so most of you don't recognise this one.  I'll explain it ...")

Not only is this more effective, it can also be cheaper as you can get an experienced person in-house to lead it instead of an accredited external trainer.

This type of refresher needn't be at arbitrary intervals, but could be when there have been some events that might make you think it would come in useful.  Not to blame the people involved in those events, but to use the events (such as spills in my example above) as a talking point to explore the issues.

thanks 3 users thanked Kate for this useful post.
peter gotch on 11/11/2023(UTC), A Kurdziel on 13/11/2023(UTC), billynxn on 14/11/2023(UTC)
johnc  
#4 Posted : 11 November 2023 12:55:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnc

Please check with your insurers as to what they expect. Whilst there is no specific requirement in law re refresher training the insurers tend to look at what some other bodies state. When I worked for the NHS we tried to do away annual manual handling training but the insurers which was part of the NHS said no as the Royal College of Nursing in one of their standards said it was required. The Litigation Authority said that was the standard that was required. Many certificates issued by National Bodies state that they only last three years even where there is no justification for it.
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billynxn on 14/11/2023(UTC)
peter gotch  
#5 Posted : 11 November 2023 13:28:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

John, whilst being strongly supportive of employee involvement in decision making AND the value of trade unions, I don't think employers should be acting to managing health and safety just to abide by what the emploees or their unions might think.

So, in the case you cite, it seems to me that the appropriate course would have been for NHS Managers to sit down with representatives of RCN and discuss the value of refresher training in manual handling and how this should be done - and for reasons already given by Kate, NOT simply repeating  what was done last time round.

thanks 2 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
MikeKelly on 12/11/2023(UTC), A Kurdziel on 13/11/2023(UTC)
johnc  
#6 Posted : 11 November 2023 14:57:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnc

Peter, whilst agreeing with your opinion if the RCN was just a trade union. However it has a Royal Charter that sets it up as a professional body responsible for standards including training of nurses. The Charter in effect gives them the absolute right to set these standards even including the course run by universities. We did try to change their stance on manual handling but to no avail.
thanks 4 users thanked johnc for this useful post.
Kate on 11/11/2023(UTC), MikeKelly on 12/11/2023(UTC), peter gotch on 12/11/2023(UTC), billynxn on 14/11/2023(UTC)
peter gotch  
#7 Posted : 12 November 2023 16:02:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Point taken John, but professional bodies sometimes get it all wrong!

However, perhaps currently is not the best time to for NHS managers (with hands tied by HMG) to negotiate with RCN, unless they can be persuaded that rethinking is not an excuse for cuts.

That said, nurses do all sorts of different tasks, some of which present manual handling risks which vary substantially. Surely most people would recognise that this means that their training needs are best met by tailoring them to what they are doing on a daily basis or are likely to be soon doing - if the case can be made in such a way as to minimise any likelihood of distrust.

Edited by user 12 November 2023 16:03:55(UTC)  | Reason: Do I need to do the IOSH training on full stops and commas?

thanks 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 13/11/2023(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 12 November 2023 20:55:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Refresher going over what has happened before is pointless unless the message never landed in the first place.

As mentioned what has been "learned" does not get unlearned e.g. riding a bike, driving.

What becomes important is honing the skills and knowledge over time a bit like the professional CPD demanded in iosh membership.

That much miss-used term "competence" is just about to drift in to the wider construction arena in consequence of the Building Safety Act you can already hear the schemers planning their latest "card".

thanks 6 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 13/11/2023(UTC), peter gotch on 13/11/2023(UTC), billynxn on 14/11/2023(UTC), A Kurdziel on 13/11/2023(UTC), peter gotch on 13/11/2023(UTC), billynxn on 14/11/2023(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 12 November 2023 20:55:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Refresher going over what has happened before is pointless unless the message never landed in the first place.

As mentioned what has been "learned" does not get unlearned e.g. riding a bike, driving.

What becomes important is honing the skills and knowledge over time a bit like the professional CPD demanded in iosh membership.

That much miss-used term "competence" is just about to drift in to the wider construction arena in consequence of the Building Safety Act you can already hear the schemers planning their latest "card".

thanks 6 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 13/11/2023(UTC), peter gotch on 13/11/2023(UTC), billynxn on 14/11/2023(UTC), A Kurdziel on 13/11/2023(UTC), peter gotch on 13/11/2023(UTC), billynxn on 14/11/2023(UTC)
O'Donnell54548  
#10 Posted : 13 November 2023 09:12:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
O'Donnell54548

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Refresher going over what has happened before is pointless unless the message never landed in the first place.

As mentioned what has been "learned" does not get unlearned e.g. riding a bike, driving.

What becomes important is honing the skills and knowledge over time a bit like the professional CPD demanded in iosh membership.

That much miss-used term "competence" is just about to drift in to the wider construction arena in consequence of the Building Safety Act you can already hear the schemers planning their latest "card".

And how many drivers do you know who still drive like they were taught, or did on their driving test??? 

thanks 1 user thanked O'Donnell54548 for this useful post.
andrewcl on 18/01/2024(UTC)
Kate  
#11 Posted : 13 November 2023 09:24:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

How many drivers do you know who would revert to driving correctly after being forced to take a driving lesson if this were required to maintain their licence?

A Kurdziel  
#12 Posted : 13 November 2023 09:42:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

As people have said, people’s knowledge and understanding do not suddenly disappear after exactly one year!

Often people do a training course because someone says they must and then as they don’t need it the knowledge and understanding fades as soon as they are back at their desks. Reading JohnC comments makes me suspect that the training that is being offered is very generic which is exactly the sort of thing that people do not absorb and as has been said is a waste of time (for the employer) and a goldmine for “training providers”.

 

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
billynxn on 14/11/2023(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#13 Posted : 13 November 2023 09:57:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: O'Donnell54548 Go to Quoted Post
And how many drivers do you know who still drive like they were taught, or did on their driving test??? 

Thankfully NONE - if everyone were pegged at provisional level we would have serious issues on the road.

I do get your point that there are matters which will be forgotten over time such as parrot style repeating of wet and dry braking distances but in reality how valid is that information given all the potential variables with impact in the real world (mass of vehicle and type, temperature, tyre condition & type, driver reaction etc.)? This is where honing skills comes in to play getting to know and understand the vehicle, knowing your driving style and most importantly predicting what the other road user is likely to do.

So in the case of car driving in the UK society has not deemed it necessary to have mandatory periodical refresher training yet in the work environment we fall over ourselves to put FLT drivers to the test on a 3 yearly basis often despite driving with "no fault".

We are discussing demonstrating "competence" and currently fighting the suggestion that everyone should go through the business training packages designed for new starters on a three yearly cycle as employees would end up full time refresher and not contributing to business activity.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
billynxn on 14/11/2023(UTC), billynxn on 14/11/2023(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#14 Posted : 13 November 2023 09:57:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: O'Donnell54548 Go to Quoted Post
And how many drivers do you know who still drive like they were taught, or did on their driving test??? 

Thankfully NONE - if everyone were pegged at provisional level we would have serious issues on the road.

I do get your point that there are matters which will be forgotten over time such as parrot style repeating of wet and dry braking distances but in reality how valid is that information given all the potential variables with impact in the real world (mass of vehicle and type, temperature, tyre condition & type, driver reaction etc.)? This is where honing skills comes in to play getting to know and understand the vehicle, knowing your driving style and most importantly predicting what the other road user is likely to do.

So in the case of car driving in the UK society has not deemed it necessary to have mandatory periodical refresher training yet in the work environment we fall over ourselves to put FLT drivers to the test on a 3 yearly basis often despite driving with "no fault".

We are discussing demonstrating "competence" and currently fighting the suggestion that everyone should go through the business training packages designed for new starters on a three yearly cycle as employees would end up full time refresher and not contributing to business activity.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
billynxn on 14/11/2023(UTC), billynxn on 14/11/2023(UTC)
peter gotch  
#15 Posted : 13 November 2023 11:17:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Further to AK's point at #12, I can see why student nurses should get training with content prescribed by the professional body in manual handling when e.g. doing a Uni course, but as soon as they start specialising their needs will vary dramatically.

So, then logic and legislation indicate that "refresher" or, perhaps more appropriately, "additional" manual handling training should surely be based on the product of a risk assessment of the role of the individual nurse or group of nurses.

Roundtuit  
#16 Posted : 13 November 2023 12:02:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

With adoption of bariatric ambulances, wheelchairs, beds etc. should it still be manual handling?

Roundtuit  
#17 Posted : 13 November 2023 12:02:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

With adoption of bariatric ambulances, wheelchairs, beds etc. should it still be manual handling?

A Kurdziel  
#18 Posted : 13 November 2023 14:46:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Exactly, when you get the generic training, it basically  shows you how to move a box of A4 paper from the floor onto a desk-essentially useless, but a box is ticked. If you have specific tailor made training, it describes what  you do in your workplace. The emphasis should  (as the regulations say)   on avoiding manual handling using whatever equipment is made available.  If this is your job then you will get lots of practice and avoid manual handling, so refresher training will not be needed but a review/toolbox talk/get together could be useful where you ask people how it’s going and what could be done better. Of course this means that sometimes you will need address these issues, which is where refresher training is better since it implies all of the issues are down to the “incompetence of staff” and if you keep telling what to do that box will be ticked repeatedly.

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Kate on 13/11/2023(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#19 Posted : 13 November 2023 15:07:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Just looked at the original posting and from my experience the HSE does not care if you tick the boxes. They like to see systems that work.  Key to that is competence not the fact that people slept through a  training session.

chris42  
#20 Posted : 13 November 2023 15:53:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Sadly, insurance companies care if box is ticked when the claim comes in!

Extract from internet

From 1 April 2009 to 31 March 2019, NHS Resolution was notifed of 4,733 claims relating to manual handling. Of these 4,733 claims, 2,008 have been settled, 2,322 were without merit and 403 remain open. As a result, for the 2,008 settled claims NHS Resolution has paid out £57.1m in damages, claimant legal costs and NHS legal costs.

Roundtuit  
#21 Posted : 13 November 2023 16:02:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

So were the 2008 settled cases - untrained / not-refreshed / badly or illegally instructed or merely rubber desked?

Roundtuit  
#22 Posted : 13 November 2023 16:02:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

So were the 2008 settled cases - untrained / not-refreshed / badly or illegally instructed or merely rubber desked?

chris42  
#23 Posted : 13 November 2023 16:13:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

https://resolution.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Did-you-know_Manual-Handling.pdf

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billynxn on 14/11/2023(UTC)
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