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damian2701  
#1 Posted : 20 November 2023 11:02:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
damian2701

Currently have a disagreement -  It is the duty of the Principal Designer to ensure a suitable and sufficient Construction Phase Plan (CPP) is drawn up by the Principal Contractor and it is the duty of the Principal Designer to review the CPP and comment & request the PC amends identified ‘Gaps’ and then it is the duty of the PD to sign off the document as adequate and fit for purpose before the project enters the construction phase.

I have categorically stated it is not!!!

Welcome any comments

Damian

achrn  
#2 Posted : 20 November 2023 11:51:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

No it is not.

CDM sets out a number of specific duties, if this was one of them, it would be possible to quote the clause that covers it. It's just not in the regulations, nor in the Guidance (either L153 or the CITB guidance).  Complete fiction.

damian2701  
#3 Posted : 20 November 2023 14:35:25(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
damian2701

The debate rages - I have been told under Regulation 11 (1)CDM 2015 (5th paragraph) the PD must take into account the general principles of of prevention and where relevant, the content of any construction phase plan....... and therefore its is the PD responsibility to review and sign off a PC CPP

peter gotch  
#4 Posted : 20 November 2023 15:10:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Damian

Under CDM 2007 one of the specific Client duties was to check that an adequate CPP was in place before work started on site.

This was in addition to the general duties on the Client throughout the duration of the project - i.e. through the design and planning stage, prior to the start of the construction stage and then throughout that stage.

Now, under the thinned out CDM 2015, with the minimum of added extra specific requirements there is no specific requirement for anyont to check the CPP before work starts.

In practice, just as the Client often asked the CDM Co-ordinator for advice on the adequacy of the CPP before work started in the CDM 2007 era, so these days the Client often asks their PD or a "CDM Advisor" (or similar term) for advice on the CPP.

But it ain't set in stone and in either 2007/2015 regime it was/is up to the Client to decide what to do to meet their general duties throughout the duration of the project.

thanks 3 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
damian2701 on 20/11/2023(UTC), Kate on 20/11/2023(UTC), chris42 on 20/11/2023(UTC)
damian2701  
#5 Posted : 20 November 2023 15:40:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
damian2701

Thanks Peter for your reply - what concerns me, if a Quanity Surveyor who was duly appointed  PD from a recognsied pool of designers (top paragraph page 27 - L153)  who may very well have the Skills, Knowlege and Experience  - would be comfortable to sign off a CPP given their industry discipline - imagine if a PC had to get sign off from an outside party on everyting they did - in my eyes - they wouldn't be trading for very long.

achrn  
#6 Posted : 20 November 2023 16:28:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

No PI policy I have worked under would let a PD certify that the CPP is adequate and fit for purpose.  Designer's insurance is generally extremely touchy about fitness for purpose.

With respect to what is in 11(2), "take into account" does not mean approve, correct, or require changes to.  I can't see any way that a requirement to take into account any CPP can be interpreted as a duty on the PD to be correcting or approving it - the words just don't have that meaning (and if the authors intended that meaning they could very easily have put in words that did have that meaning).

thanks 2 users thanked achrn for this useful post.
Kate on 20/11/2023(UTC), damian2701 on 21/11/2023(UTC)
firesafety101  
#7 Posted : 22 November 2023 18:55:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I have never had an issue with co-operating with the PD on my written CPPs.  I can't see what the problem is because the more we co-operate the better the project ends up.

There may have been something I missed or forgot to put into the CPP and I have no problem being corrected.

Happy to help is one of my Mottos.

peter gotch  
#8 Posted : 23 November 2023 16:37:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

firesafety - your comment does not answer the question posed in the thread - which is about a DUTY on a PD, not what a PD may or may not do in practice.

The PD or a CDM Advisor or somebody with some other title such as Contract Administrator might often be asked to review the CPP before work starts on site (and sometimes later) and may comment if they see something apparently remiss.

But that doesn't mean there is a DUTY to do so, let alone a DUTY to "sign off" the CPP as being fit for purpose which (as has already been stated) would introduce massive problems with this person's PII and other issues.

It is the DUTY of the Principal Contractor to have an adequate CPP in place before work starts on site and throughout the construction phase.

Now, if there are occasions where a PD is finding issues that the PC needs to address, the PC (and perhaps any adviser) has got themselves into deep water. 

Of course this happens but it shouldn't and is likely to be taken into account in post Contract review which may well impact on the PC's ability to win further work with the Client.

firesafety101  
#9 Posted : 24 November 2023 11:14:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

 Principle contractors roles and responsibilities. "Laise with the client and PD for the duration of the projecct".

If during this Laision the PD asks to see the CPP then, in my opinion, he should see it.  If they then request amendmants it is up to the PC to argue their case, is necessary.

peter gotch  
#10 Posted : 28 November 2023 18:02:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

firesafety, one should always read legislation in full rather than in part to get a proper interpretation of what its intent is. Basic principle of the interpretation of ALL legislation.

Regulation 13(5) of CDM 2015 says:

(5) The principal contractor must liaise with the principal designer for the duration of the principal designer’s appointment and share with the principal designer information relevant to the planning, management and monitoring of the pre-construction phase and the coordination of health and safety matters during the pre-construction phase.

So, this is all aobut the "pre-construction phase" which, of course, often extends into the "construction phase" as design changes, temporary works design is done and such like.

It would be very difficult to competently interpret Regulation 13(5) as indicating that the Principal Designer has ANY responsibility when it comes to matters which the law assigns primary responsibility to the Principal Contractor.

thanks 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
damian2701 on 29/11/2023(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#11 Posted : 29 November 2023 11:38:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

sorry B2BCert how does your post add to the discussion?

Looks like a commercial advertisement for a standard that mnay have replaced.

Roundtuit  
#12 Posted : 29 November 2023 11:38:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

sorry B2BCert how does your post add to the discussion?

Looks like a commercial advertisement for a standard that mnay have replaced.

damian2701  
#13 Posted : 29 November 2023 12:04:52(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
damian2701

It is not uncommon for a Principal Designer to conclude their appointment having fulfilled their  obligation in assisting the client in providing the Pre-Construction to all duty holders (who have design interest in a scheme) well ahead of Construction Phase Plan development– which is why I am of the opinion Regulation 11 Duties of a Principal Designer is cited before Regulation 12 Construction Phase Plan – kind of follows a logical and tangible itinerary passage through each phase of a projects lifecycle.  

peter gotch  
#14 Posted : 29 November 2023 14:03:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

REPORTED post by B2BCert just in case Roundtuit hasn't beaten me to it.

Roundtuit  
#15 Posted : 19 January 2024 09:17:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The original wasn't but now user savannah has been busy - REPORTED

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
peter gotch on 19/01/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 19/01/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#16 Posted : 19 January 2024 09:17:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The original wasn't but now user savannah has been busy - REPORTED

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
peter gotch on 19/01/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 19/01/2024(UTC)
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