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M Rys  
#1 Posted : 27 February 2024 12:23:29(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
M Rys

I have recently developed Menopause Policy and RA in my organisation. In my experience it brings positive results and helps everone who is experiencing menopausal symptoms to feel valued, respected, no matter what stage of life they are. It has also helped managers to recognise some important symptoms and deal with each situation individually in a respectful, dignified and confidential manner. What is your professional experience?

peter gotch  
#2 Posted : 27 February 2024 15:06:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi M R

My experience is that this is something that the HR team deal with, asking the HSE team for help when appropriate, just as they might with e.g. a return to work programme after extended absence.

P

grim72  
#3 Posted : 27 February 2024 15:31:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
grim72

There is a high chance that the menopause would fall under The Equality Act 2010 in protecting workers (menopausal women) against discrimination (Under the Equality Act 2010, menopause is largely covered under three protected characteristics: age, sex and disability discrimination). Likewise the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974, states an employer must, where reasonably practical, ensure everyone’s health, safety and welfare at work.

When you read up on how it affects mental health and can impact on their working life then it shouldn't really be a question that needs to be asked - by providing the necessary support (which can be little things like providing fans, more breaks, access to quiet areas etc, as well as someone they can talk to) the benefits should far outweigh the costs to the business in terms of improving productivity, morale etc.

We are just in the process of designing a range of posters to advise staff of what we are able to offer by way of support and details of the company's "menopause champions" for staff to speak to if required.

A Kurdziel  
#4 Posted : 27 February 2024 16:37:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

A menopause  policy is a very  good idea but why would it be a H&S matter? When it comes to risk assessment  please see my comment(#14)  on the “Defibrillator public access”.

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
peter gotch on 27/02/2024(UTC)
Kate  
#5 Posted : 27 February 2024 17:49:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I agree that I have only seen this coming under the remit of HR.  It's the latest fashion there.

And that a menopause policy is a good thing to have (speaking here from personal rather than professional experience).

And that I have no idea of why you would have something called a menopause risk assessment.

Oh and by the way, menopause isn't all about hot flushes.  If you are concerned about risks, consider menopausal rage.  Fortunately, this is easily eliminated by the application of modern medicine, and access to that is the number 1 thing that society could do to protect itself from the dangers of menopausal rage.

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peter gotch on 28/02/2024(UTC)
Messy  
#6 Posted : 27 February 2024 18:12:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Messy

Menopausal risk assessment?????🤔🤔

What the hell triggers one of those?


I am totally in support of a policy, if no other reason to educate others - especially us men- about what women may face at that time and what we can all do to make life a bit easier at work

But a risk assessment? What next? A period risk assessment??

Hi Sandra, I noticed you celebrated a birthday last week. Can I have a word in my office to complete a menopausal risk.assessment?

Good luck with that 🙈
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A Kurdziel on 28/02/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 28/02/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 27 February 2024 22:32:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

idle hands are the devils workshop

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A Kurdziel on 28/02/2024(UTC), O'Donnell54548 on 28/02/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 28/02/2024(UTC), O'Donnell54548 on 28/02/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 27 February 2024 22:32:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

idle hands are the devils workshop

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A Kurdziel on 28/02/2024(UTC), O'Donnell54548 on 28/02/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 28/02/2024(UTC), O'Donnell54548 on 28/02/2024(UTC)
O'Donnell54548  
#9 Posted : 28 February 2024 09:38:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
O'Donnell54548

Can we have a 'Man Flu' policy, asking for a friend.

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Messey on 28/02/2024(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#10 Posted : 28 February 2024 10:20:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

yes; ask those nice people in HR!

Gerry Knowles  
#11 Posted : 28 February 2024 12:23:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Gerry Knowles

I am fully in support of having a Menopause Policy, we have had one in place for about nine months.  As for a risk assessment.  I am having a struggle to see value in it as each lady will have totally different circumstances and effects.  Perhaps an assessment along the lines that is used when a lady declares a pregnancy might be a better way forward.  

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knotty on 08/03/2024(UTC)
kmason83  
#12 Posted : 28 February 2024 13:17:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kmason83

Originally Posted by: grim72 Go to Quoted Post

There is a high chance that the menopause would fall under The Equality Act 2010 in protecting workers (menopausal women) against discrimination (Under the Equality Act 2010, menopause is largely covered under three protected characteristics: age, sex and disability discrimination). Likewise the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974, states an employer must, where reasonably practical, ensure everyone’s health, safety and welfare at work.

When you read up on how it affects mental health and can impact on their working life then it shouldn't really be a question that needs to be asked - by providing the necessary support (which can be little things like providing fans, more breaks, access to quiet areas etc, as well as someone they can talk to) the benefits should far outweigh the costs to the business in terms of improving productivity, morale etc.

We are just in the process of designing a range of posters to advise staff of what we are able to offer by way of support and details of the company's "menopause champions" for staff to speak to if required.


Your language and your complete throw away of the effects of menopause are a complete smack in the mouth.  I suggest you get some real advice before you design any procedures or posters because you are on the verge of being offensive at best. Your ignorance is deafening, your flagrant disregard for women as human beings is sickening at best. If you truely want to support and assist your colleagues in what can be a life altering time of their lives then you will do some decent research. If you chuck a fan at your collegues and say get on with it because that just a balance of whats good for business you may at best find yourself on the recieveing end of some complaints about your attitude at worst you land your orgainastaion in a tribunal. 
kmason83  
#13 Posted : 28 February 2024 13:24:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kmason83

It’s clear that a lot of old male dinosaurs lurk in these forums, these comments are disgusting. If you didn’t get into health and safety to help people be safe and healthy at work then why are you here? It’s not just about machines, dusts, and noise now old fellas move with the times! 

 

BTW man flu isn’t menopause, you never even had a period where pain makes your legs and bum hole seize up but you have to walk around a site to do an audit doped up on enough pain killers to take out a horse because you cant call in sick with that and when you work in a traditionally male role you cant slack off because of that because you get enough stick as it is enough let me hand you this sweetheart its heavy or let me go up there darling its dark and dusty - the world is changing and the misogyny doesn’t cut it anymore! 

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jonc on 18/03/2024(UTC)
achrn  
#14 Posted : 28 February 2024 14:26:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

kmason83 wrote:

Your language and your complete throw away of the effects of menopause are a complete smack in the mouth.  I suggest you get some real advice 


Kmason83 I think some re-reading and quite reflection might be in order.  The majority of teh repsonses in the thread are saying that a menopause policy is a good thing.

As I read it Grim72 is saying obviously it's a no-brainer that women going through menopause should have access to reasonable adjustments, suppport, and so on. They say that in some case it may be a 'little thing' that is all that is required, which I think is probably true.

You are vehemently (and implicitly violently) disagreeing.  You are accusing someone who says obviously yes there should be support of being sickening, offensive, and smacking you in the mouth.

Do you really find the idea of supporting people going through menopause to be offensive, ignorant, and sickening?

thanks 7 users thanked achrn for this useful post.
Roundtuit on 28/02/2024(UTC), grim72 on 28/02/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 28/02/2024(UTC), Connor35037 on 28/02/2024(UTC), M.cooper.99 on 01/03/2024(UTC), Self and Hasty on 04/03/2024(UTC), HSSnail on 11/03/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#15 Posted : 28 February 2024 14:57:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: kmason83 Go to Quoted Post
It’s clear that a lot of old male dinosaurs lurk in these forums

What is clear is these forums are being visited by the Selectively Offended.

As a dinosaur (at my age I do not take offence) I read grim72 contribution as being supportive of the OP.

Roundtuit  
#16 Posted : 28 February 2024 14:57:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: kmason83 Go to Quoted Post
It’s clear that a lot of old male dinosaurs lurk in these forums

What is clear is these forums are being visited by the Selectively Offended.

As a dinosaur (at my age I do not take offence) I read grim72 contribution as being supportive of the OP.

grim72  
#17 Posted : 28 February 2024 15:09:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
grim72

Thank you achrn - I really was struggling to see what I had said to justify such a response. Thankfully I'm old enough and wise enough to ignore trolling of any nature. I fully intend to continue offering support to those going through the menopause in whatever way I can - there is a lot of advice online on what you can do and the "little things" I mentioned were examples of low cost and easily implemented things (not an exhaustive list of what we can/will be doing). Clearly I should have listed every symptom, every offer of support and every piece of medical advice to avoid being wrongly accused of misogyny (I'm not sure how offering support and having dedicated menopuase champions within the company who have first hand experience and are able to offer help/support and advice in confendtiality can be considered a bad thing). The reason for mentioning the legislation was an attempt to link into H&S rather than saying it is purely an HR exercise as I do believe there is a cross-over between the two. Anyway I am off to start lurking in the forum, in fear of offering any further help to those that ask for it (god forbid lol)

Kate  
#18 Posted : 28 February 2024 18:01:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

For the record, as a perimenopausal woman and (dare I say?  what the hell) a feminist, I didn't take any offence at Grim's remarks, which I found constructive.

I was only mildly annoyed by the emphasis on hot flushes.

thanks 3 users thanked Kate for this useful post.
Roundtuit on 28/02/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 29/02/2024(UTC), melrogers on 29/02/2024(UTC)
achrn  
#19 Posted : 29 February 2024 09:41:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: Kate Go to Quoted Post

I was only mildly annoyed by the emphasis on hot flushes.

As a man, I observe that it is (or has been) the symptom that women most commonly talk about to men - it's the only menopause symptom any stranger has felt obliged to tell me about (twice, and one person repeatedly throughout the only day in my life I was in their presence) and it's also what my wife complains about most frequently. 

Perhaps it's just a 'socially acceptable' symptom - when my father was on chemotherapy about the only side effect he talked about (I might even go so far as to say 'went on about') was hot flushes. 

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Kate on 29/02/2024(UTC)
firesafety101  
#20 Posted : 29 February 2024 10:32:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

During my fire brigade career of 25 years I worked with men except for the station cook/s and cleaners, no real menopause discussions although the cooks did seem to suffer a bit in the hot kitchen with very little or no complaint.

My first job after retirement was FPO in a factory employing 1500 with the majority of them women on produchion lines.  Lots of complaining about hot temperatures and asking about maximum workplace temperatures, which there is not, cold orange juice by the bucketful was always available with electric fans as many as they wanted, and they were allowed to take breaks at reasonable times.

I was based inside the Personnel Department with mostly women who did symphasise about the heat but also assisted the company in providing the cool drinks and work breaks but were obviously suffering themselves while on their Menopause, but hey ho they had a job to do and carried on doing it. The mood in the office was always quite jovial.

On a personal level when I met my second wife I was told by her father that her nickname was 'Storm' and I soon found out why haha.

peter gotch  
#21 Posted : 29 February 2024 16:18:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Whatever I think about this being generally for HR to lead on, IOSH has put out a press release this week.

Employers urged to act on menopause | IOSH

Kate  
#22 Posted : 29 February 2024 18:03:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I think the point about the social acceptability of hot flushes is an important one.

For me the devastating symptoms were cognitive impairment and emotional instability.  In our line of work, as many others, we live or are sacked by our cognitive and emotional abilities,  so it would be frightening to admit to this without confidence in a sympathetic response.  This was all solved for me just by medicine, but while I was struggling to get the medicine,  I was really worried that I would make a serious error or blow up in the workplace.  So greater understanding about this and how to deal with it is important.

Hot flushes, while annoying, are trivial by comparison!

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peter gotch on 01/03/2024(UTC)
firesafety101  
#23 Posted : 01 March 2024 12:31:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

During the second world war our British women played a huge part in us winning the war.  They were the Land Army farming our food and my Mum helped make Barrage Baloons in the old Littlewoods factory.

I wonder what might have happened if they all claimed time off for their menapause.  I would wager most of them worked right through 

grim72  
#24 Posted : 01 March 2024 14:38:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
grim72

Originally Posted by: firesafety101 Go to Quoted Post

During the second world war our British women played a huge part in us winning the war.  They were the Land Army farming our food and my Mum helped make Barrage Baloons in the old Littlewoods factory.

I wonder what might have happened if they all claimed time off for their menapause.  I would wager most of them worked right through 


But the world has evolved since then (otherwise we'd still be sending young urchins up chimneys because they used to just get on with it too lol) and the problem is that a lot of companies do just expect menopausal women to get on with it because, let's be honest, a lot of companies are run by men and a lot of times by men that put profit above most things (whether that be safety, mental health or wellbeing). It is why I'm of advocate of highlighting it under the Equality Act as a "disability" - and as such should be treated with the same level of understanding and adjutments as someone using a wheelchair should expect.

I do think that by opening up the conversations and raising awareness in the news/IOSH etc that it will help bring about some long overdue changes in terms of opening eyes and minds. Some of the stats are quite staggering - eg, 20% take time off work to deal with menopausal symptoms, 63% feel their worklife has been negatively impacted, 11% forwent the offer of promotion, 50% feel depressive, 37% suffer from anxiety, 9 in 10 feel that they can't speak to their manager about the menopause, and the list goes on. 

For some reason these stats, the mental issues and the medical issues don't seem to get the recognition they should - probably because so many of the decision makers are men and just see it as "one of those women's problems" because we have no first have knoweldge or experience of exactly what they do go through. It is why we are trying to make a difference by introducing women that have gone through the symptoms and have been trained in mental health to act as "menopause champions" and act as a go-between to management to put forward additional requirments that have neen suggested/asked for by employees. 

Now I know I have already offended some people by even mentioning such things and as a man I have no real authority in the subject but I have read up a lot about the issues on the many extrememly informative and educational websites that offer support and guidance on the matter and as such I intend to coninue down the route of offering the support and making reasonable adjustments where we can - maybe I should be burnt at the stake for even suggesting such "sickening" and "offensive" ideas but I'm willing to stand my ground on this one and push forward with this one. And apologies but if someone asks for a fan then we will provide them with one lol 

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peter gotch on 01/03/2024(UTC), Elfin_Safety on 01/03/2024(UTC), Kate on 01/03/2024(UTC)
Elfin_Safety  
#25 Posted : 01 March 2024 14:40:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Elfin_Safety

Originally Posted by: firesafety101 Go to Quoted Post

During the second world war our British women played a huge part in us winning the war.  They were the Land Army farming our food and my Mum helped make Barrage Baloons in the old Littlewoods factory.

I wonder what might have happened if they all claimed time off for their menapause.  I would wager most of them worked right through 


They probably did, but I'm not sure a war zone 80 years ago is the standard of workplace health we should be aspiring to now?

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peter gotch on 01/03/2024(UTC), Kate on 01/03/2024(UTC), HSSnail on 11/03/2024(UTC), jonc on 18/03/2024(UTC)
peter gotch  
#26 Posted : 01 March 2024 15:27:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Thanks Grim and Tim

My thinking exactly.

I have beside me a book which is mostly inspired by one of the author's ancestors who is also one of my 5th (I think I have counted correctly!) Great Grandmothers but she has yet to appear. Instead the opening section is about how her husband to be went to Jamaica in 1749 in an effort to make a fortune.

He was about to turn 14 but had already spent 2 years in the Royal Navy in a war against the French, so had started working at the age of 11.

I really don't think that we should be considering what happened during a War or in the 18th and 19th Centuries as being a good precedent for how to manage the modern workplace.

That doesn't mean that it is not appropriate to learn from history. Many British Colonists in the West Indies had very short lives, often as a result of being exposed to diseases to which they had no in built immunity, something that happens to some "expats" and other migrant workers, who move to different geographies in the 21st Century. 

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HSSnail on 11/03/2024(UTC)
Kate  
#27 Posted : 01 March 2024 17:55:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

In the Industrial Revolution, men, women and children just got on with working in the factories and didn't expect to get Saturdays off, or for there to be guards on the machinery, or to get compensation for workplace injuries and occupational diseases.  The days when men were real men, women were real women, and children were real children.

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Alan Haynes  
#28 Posted : 02 March 2024 12:31:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alan Haynes

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post
Whatever I think about this being generally for HR to lead on, IOSH has put out a press release this week.Employers urged to act on menopause | IOSH





Perhaps IOSH would care to share with us what they have 'Implemented ' to match with the advice they have given to others?
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peter gotch on 02/03/2024(UTC), Kate on 02/03/2024(UTC)
Kate  
#29 Posted : 02 March 2024 16:32:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I have two questions about that press release.

First, why do businesses need to create an environment where *employers* are comfortable discussing menopause?  Shouldn't they be focusing on their employees?

Secondly, why are the *specific* risks to menopausal employees not specified?

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peter gotch on 02/03/2024(UTC)
peter gotch  
#30 Posted : 02 March 2024 18:03:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Kate,

Possibly IOSH hasn't "specified" the risks in this press release, as someone at the Grange who probably DOES have significant experience and expertise of advising on OH issues has probably not done much on the issue of Menopause before.

For the simple reason that they would have been USUALLY looking at issues which are clearly WORK-related.

So, advising on how to deal with people exposed to respiratory risks at work, both before and during work, and then advising on what can be done to support a person who has been impacted.

I assume that the typical OH professional is like the typical Occupational Safety and Health adviser - too many things on their plate, so SHOULD be time managing and prioritising the WORK-related risks but helping out with advise on things like menopause when asked for advice by e.g. HR. 

stevedm  
#31 Posted : 03 March 2024 17:23:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5743449/

bit of a sideroad onto health exposures which have triggered they symptoms...

A Kurdziel  
#32 Posted : 04 March 2024 10:59:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Let’s go back to why we think that this is not a H&S matter but should fall to HR.

H&S is largely about looking at work related tasks and then looking at the risks to employees that arise from those task, be physical agents, organisational issues, equipment etc. Having done that we identify the controls that the employer can apply to ensure the health, safety and wellbeing of employees carrying out specific tasks. The controls must be something that employer can reasonably expected to do as the tasks are something within the employer’s control.

The issue of menopause is not something within the control of  the employer: all women will go through the menopause at some point in their lives, but this will vary between individuals.  You cannot create a risk assessment which has any sort of meaning nor can you adopt controls. Instead the employer should create a policy which supports women going through the menopause while they work, just as there are policies supporting people with children and other carers’ responsibilities,  sickness absence,  or equality issues. These policies fall very much in HR responsibilities.  

firesafety101  
#33 Posted : 04 March 2024 11:12:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Interesting take AK which makes me wonder if the Menopause could be classed as a 'disability'.  It only (usually) affects women but most if not all women, and every woman is affected differently.

Children and young people with ADHD and similar conditions are risk assessed with reasonable adjustments being made so why not women with the Menopause.

I learned a long time ago there is no such thing as a stupid question so I'm hoping this will not be considered as "stupid".

achrn  
#34 Posted : 04 March 2024 13:17:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

The issue of menopause is not something within the control of  the employer: all women will go through the menopause at some point in their lives, but this will vary between individuals.  You cannot create a risk assessment which has any sort of meaning nor can you adopt controls.

Why not?  We create risk assessments for other medical issues and sometimes adopt individual-specific control measures. I am struggling to understand why it is impossible to risk assess a particular individual who has particular symptoms, when those symptoms arise from menopause.

I observe that we've done risk assessments for particular employees with variants of narcolepsy, with significantly less-than-normal eyesight, and who are deaf.  The symptoms of nearly all medical conditions differ between individuals.  My hearing is poor, and though I don't qualify as deaf I'm not allowed on or near the line on rail sites without special arrangemnts, but the workplace arrangements for me are differnet to those we've assessed for our profoundly deaf employee. 

Kate  
#35 Posted : 05 March 2024 17:39:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

To firesafety's point, menopause can be disabling but isn't necessarily so.

Here is a legal take on it:

https://www.ioshmagazine.com/2024/03/04/ehrc-highlights-employers-legal-obligations-new-menopause-workplace-guidance

knotty  
#36 Posted : 08 March 2024 13:19:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
knotty

I see menopause risk as a shared responsibility between HR and H&S.

When it comes to the "who might be harmed" bit of a RA, someone journeying through menopause may see their physical, mental and emotional abilities change - and not in predictable, linear ways. She may experience fluctuations in symptoms as her journey progresses; and any interventions, such as medications and mental health support, can add to the uncertainty and longevity of changes.

Being several years into this journey myself, I find women are often more likely to to be open and honest with me - the safety person - in managing the way they work, rather than HR, where "capability" discussions are feared during this potentially unstable phase of life.

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Kate on 11/03/2024(UTC)
HSSnail  
#37 Posted : 11 March 2024 09:39:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Originally Posted by: firesafety101 Go to Quoted Post

Interesting take AK which makes me wonder if the Menopause could be classed as a 'disability'.  It only (usually) affects women but most if not all women, and every woman is affected differently.

Children and young people with ADHD and similar conditions are risk assessed with reasonable adjustments being made so why not women with the Menopause.

I learned a long time ago there is no such thing as a stupid question so I'm hoping this will not be considered as "stupid".

Menopause in the workplace: Guidance for employers | EHRC (equalityhumanrights.com) 

But for me its HR not H&S

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