Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Popecriente  
#1 Posted : 13 January 2025 07:13:31(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Popecriente

Hi,

Working in the construction industry and we had a discussion on site lately.  As the topic says, do H&S Managers have right to check subcontractor's containers (tools, coshh containers on site)? 

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 13 January 2025 08:35:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Asking about rights implies you either disagree with someone seeking to inspect your container or that someone has disagreed with your attmept to inspect their container.

UK sites are covered by CDM which requires co-operation between the principal contractor and others working at site.

The principal generally holds the over arching responsibility for H&S at the site which would include those parts occupied by others.

That said there is no absolute right for an H&S Manager to demand doors be opened nor access granted.

Such stand off's can be avoided by correctly worded engagement contracts e.g.

The principal, or their appointed representative, will be permitted on issue of suitable notice to inspect those areas of the site locked against common access by others working at site for a stated purpose. A similar clause for inspection under cause e.g. suspected acquistion / theft of property belonging to others would also exist.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
HSSnail on 13/01/2025(UTC), peter gotch on 13/01/2025(UTC), HSSnail on 13/01/2025(UTC), peter gotch on 13/01/2025(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 13 January 2025 08:35:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Asking about rights implies you either disagree with someone seeking to inspect your container or that someone has disagreed with your attmept to inspect their container.

UK sites are covered by CDM which requires co-operation between the principal contractor and others working at site.

The principal generally holds the over arching responsibility for H&S at the site which would include those parts occupied by others.

That said there is no absolute right for an H&S Manager to demand doors be opened nor access granted.

Such stand off's can be avoided by correctly worded engagement contracts e.g.

The principal, or their appointed representative, will be permitted on issue of suitable notice to inspect those areas of the site locked against common access by others working at site for a stated purpose. A similar clause for inspection under cause e.g. suspected acquistion / theft of property belonging to others would also exist.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
HSSnail on 13/01/2025(UTC), peter gotch on 13/01/2025(UTC), HSSnail on 13/01/2025(UTC), peter gotch on 13/01/2025(UTC)
HSSnail  
#4 Posted : 13 January 2025 08:40:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Have you thought about having a regular site inspection agred as part of the contract with the subbies so the request does not come a shock?

Kate  
#5 Posted : 13 January 2025 09:00:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

The job of H&S Manager does not come with any rights at all, only responsibilities.  Using the language of rights will only lead to conflict.

So where there is a need, as there sometimes is,  to inspect other parties' stuff, this first has to be agreed with them.  Depending on the situation this might be in advance, or case by case.  On a construction site such a need is very foreseeable so it would be best to do this in advance, preferably through contractual agreements that everyone is clear about.

thanks 2 users thanked Kate for this useful post.
Andrew_C on 13/01/2025(UTC), peter gotch on 13/01/2025(UTC)
firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 13 January 2025 11:04:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

So on the other side of the coin can a sub contractor refuse the request without consequenses.

stevedm  
#7 Posted : 13 January 2025 11:10:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

Yes, H&S Managers generally have the legal right and responsibility to inspect subcontractors' containers (e.g., tools, COSHH containers) on-site, provided they are acting within the scope of their duties and ensuring compliance with applicable health and safety regulations. This authority stems from:

  1. Their obligation under the HSWA 1974 to maintain a safe working environment.
  2. The principal contractor’s duties under the CDM 2015 Regulations to monitor subcontractor compliance.
  3. COSHH regulations requiring hazardous substances to be safely stored and properly labelled.

Subcontractors are also legally obligated to cooperate with these inspections under HSWA (Section 7) and CDM 2015. The inspection process must, however, be conducted reasonably and professionally to avoid claims of overreach or interference.

Kate  
#8 Posted : 13 January 2025 11:47:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

So which bit of any of the three laws you mention there refers to "H&S Managers" and their rights?

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
Roundtuit on 13/01/2025(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 13 January 2025 11:50:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: firesafety101 Go to Quoted Post

So on the other side of the coin can a sub contractor refuse the request without consequenses.


Given they have been sub-contracted there would be, if not a written statement (contracts typically mention which legislative jursidiction covers an agreement), an implied obligation to comply fully with UK legislation and site arrangements - there always remains the sanction of dimissal.

Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 13 January 2025 11:50:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: firesafety101 Go to Quoted Post

So on the other side of the coin can a sub contractor refuse the request without consequenses.


Given they have been sub-contracted there would be, if not a written statement (contracts typically mention which legislative jursidiction covers an agreement), an implied obligation to comply fully with UK legislation and site arrangements - there always remains the sanction of dimissal.

Messey  
#11 Posted : 13 January 2025 12:08:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Messey

Originally Posted by: firesafety101 Go to Quoted Post

So on the other side of the coin can a sub contractor refuse the request without consequenses.


Trouble maker ;)

thanks 1 user thanked Messey for this useful post.
firesafety101 on 14/01/2025(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#12 Posted : 13 January 2025 12:10:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Under COSHH regulation there are duties to ensure hazardous substances  are stored correctly and labelled etc, but that duty is on the employer. It does not grant any third party such as the H&S adviser of the PC or client, any “rights” to inspect stores etc. As people have said, this is down to the contractual relation between the parties and it perfectly acceptable for the PC or client to restrict the substances etc being brought on site and as part of that it might be agreed that an inspection of stores etc might be required. It has nothing to do with “rights”: It is down to the terms and  conditions of the contract.

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
HSSnail on 14/01/2025(UTC)
HSSnail  
#13 Posted : 14 January 2025 08:30:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Originally Posted by: stevedm Go to Quoted Post

Yes, H&S Managers generally have the legal right and responsibility to inspect subcontractors' containers (e.g., tools, COSHH containers) on-site, provided they are acting within the scope of their duties and ensuring compliance with applicable health and safety regulations. This authority stems from:

  1. Their obligation under the HSWA 1974 to maintain a safe working environment.
  2. The principal contractor’s duties under the CDM 2015 Regulations to monitor subcontractor compliance.
  3. COSHH regulations requiring hazardous substances to be safely stored and properly labelled.

Subcontractors are also legally obligated to cooperate with these inspections under HSWA (Section 7) and CDM 2015. The inspection process must, however, be conducted reasonably and professionally to avoid claims of overreach or interference.

Sorry but this does not give you the right to do what you suggest - however if the subby is failing in THEIR resposnibilities i would suggest it give you the right to boot them off site. As i have said above personaly i feel its best that everyone knows that site inspetions will be carried out from time to time and that has been agreed by all. HASWA places DUTIES on us it grants POWERS to inspectors. 

thanks 1 user thanked HSSnail for this useful post.
achrn on 15/01/2025(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#14 Posted : 14 January 2025 14:32:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Years ago I was involved in an organisation whose new site had been completed and handed over to us from the PC (a major UK construction company). We ask for assurance that the site was asbestos free, but they said that they could no do so. Although they had insisted that no ACMs were to be used, they could not guarantee that some subby had not bought some something on site and incorporated into in the building.  That is the sort of situation where need an agreement to check what people are actually doing and bringing on the site. Of course, if someone breaks the agreement the contract is off and you are perfectly entitled to wave them off the site, but it has to be in the contract.

toe  
#15 Posted : 18 January 2025 10:55:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

During my construction site inspections, I often found myself in contractors' offices and storage containers. While I had a good rapport with most contract managers, there were always a few who questioned my authority. Interestingly, these were the ones where issues were most prevalent, such as overalls and gloves on open-element heaters and poor housekeeping standards.

Note: For these reasons, we introduced SHEQ Requirements Standards that all contractors signed up to, which included an agreement to enter their containers.

Users browsing this topic
Guest (2)
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.