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johnmurray  
#41 Posted : 09 January 2012 08:02:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

I think you'll find the Loftstedt report produced unexpected and unwanted results, and will be quietly swept under the floor-covering. Said report was obviously expected to produce statistics that would have justified wholesale homicide of the elderly, but venerated, (in some quarters) Health and safety at work (etc) act. It did not. So, goodbye Loftstedt. I shall still walk around with a smile though, since most of new legislation is from the EU. And the UK government can do nothing much about it. In fact, the majority of all new legislation in the past 5 years has come from the EU enacted as statutory instruments. Oh, and the zero VAT rate for some items is shortly to be the subject of EU interest, statewide. The wise money is on it being removed.
NLivesey  
#42 Posted : 09 January 2012 08:57:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NLivesey

pete48 wrote:
where the CEO stood in front the workforce and said the same thing " But he isn't a CEO, he is a leader of a political party. He has voters to keep sweet when he is talking in public, especially at a party sponsored event. Changing the status quo is never easy and the means to achieve change comes in many forms. I haven't seen any firm proposals yet on how any change would/could be acheived apart from Lofstedt. It seems to me that it is too easy for us to project our concerns onto his words and read what is not being said as much as what is being said. The thrust of his comments were clearly aimed at the problematic area of civil claims. As Kieran D said in his post above 'the critical issues to watch are how adequately the government fulfil Loftstedt's recommendations'. If we consistently allow ourselves to be drawn into and focus on moral arguments we risk being ignored or dismissed as part of the monster. If we assume that there is nothing more to politics than these public sound bytes then we also risk losing any respect that others may have for us in the continuing debate. p48
As I stated before, 'We' may think that we understand that this was geared towards the ambulance chasing/compensation culture but the wider audience will still read this as Health and Safety as a whole. That's why this is such a contentious issue.
martynp1000  
#43 Posted : 09 January 2012 19:20:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
martynp1000

Quote:
The number of existing health and safety regulations is to be cut in half by the end of the year
Can I just point out that much of the H&S legislation "monster" is based on Europe generated "Directives" which we are obliged to implement in the UK. An instance where we have failed to fully implement the European Directive is Asbestos where we are now consulting (again) on proposed changes and face the prospect of a complete new set of Regulations and Guidance around April time. Martyn
Bob Shillabeer  
#44 Posted : 09 January 2012 19:52:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

I wrote to a fairly National Welsh newspaper which published a report on the Prime Ministers response to a question from a newspaper reporter about H&S. 'When will the Prime Minister realise that he is constantly trying to change something that in general requires no change at all. Two reports one of which was independent have shown that there is very little wrong with the current Health and Safety legislation in this country. He ( Lofstedt, concluded that "The general sweep of requirements set out in health and safety regulations are broadly fit for purpose but there are a few which offer little benefit to health and safety and which the Goverment should remove, or clarify". He went on to say that the biggest problem is some regulatory requirments are missunderstood and applied inappropriately'. 'To describe H&S law as an Albatross shows he, the Prime Minister, seems to have an inbuilt hatred of H&S law which after all was developed to protect those at work and has been around since the first welfare act was put on the statute book in 1802. Lord Robens reported on the state of H&S management in the UK following several major disasters and this was followed by the creation of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act in 1974. Prior to this there was pronciple of passing laws for specific issues which resulted in a mass of very old and out of date legislation most of which has now already been repealed and repalced by far more relevant laws. Therefore both Lord Young and Professor Lofstedt concluded that there is little wrong with the H&S law currently in place'. However, the issue of no win no fee organisations chasing claims, in America they are called ambulance chasers, is the most problamatic issue, we are bombarded daily by television adverts for no win no fee companies and often hounded by street tarders trying to sell such services. Coupled to this is the constant press over statements about the daft H&S issues many of which are miss reported or even lied about. On top of this there is a somewhat over zealous approch used by mainly the public sector simply because of conditions placed upon employers etc by insurance companies, who after all are trying to make profits from customers without the risk of having to payout should anything go wrong'. As I said when will the Prime Minister stop trying to devise the answer he wants and accept what learned people are saying about H&S law in this country.
pete48  
#45 Posted : 09 January 2012 21:30:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

How do we know what the prime minister wants isn't the key points of Lofstedt? Has he publicly rejected the report specifically or is his reputation for shooting from the mouth giving that impression? For example, someone quotes Cameron earlier in the thread as saying 'The number of existing health and safety regulations is to be cut in half by the end of the year'. Pooh, pooh say many, cannot be done. And yet, is that so far from the reality? Lofsted in his report stated that reduction of 35% would be acheived by sector specific consolidation and mentions a date of mid 2012. He goes on to recommend that further reduction is likely to be possible in other areas and suggest that more work should follow to achieve that reduction. So, it may be that 50% will go. It may actually be an acheivable target? Either way it is one of those nice round figures that PR people love. What is clear is that it does not mean a 50% reduction in any existing duties. One of the recurring complaints from business is that often the Regs are just too complex and confusing and that a tidy up and better guidance from the HSE would ease the burden of compliance, not ease the duty imposed. I still urge pragmatism so that we do not read what we want to read and miss what is actually being said. p48
BuzzLightyear  
#46 Posted : 10 January 2012 10:18:16(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
BuzzLightyear

pete48 wrote:
How do we know what the prime minister wants isn't the key points of Lofstedt? Has he publicly rejected the report specifically or is his reputation for shooting from the mouth giving that impression? For example, someone quotes Cameron earlier in the thread as saying 'The number of existing health and safety regulations is to be cut in half by the end of the year'. Pooh, pooh say many, cannot be done. And yet, is that so far from the reality? Lofsted in his report stated that reduction of 35% would be acheived by sector specific consolidation and mentions a date of mid 2012. He goes on to recommend that further reduction is likely to be possible in other areas and suggest that more work should follow to achieve that reduction. So, it may be that 50% will go. It may actually be an acheivable target? Either way it is one of those nice round figures that PR people love. What is clear is that it does not mean a 50% reduction in any existing duties. One of the recurring complaints from business is that often the Regs are just too complex and confusing and that a tidy up and better guidance from the HSE would ease the burden of compliance, not ease the duty imposed. I still urge pragmatism so that we do not read what we want to read and miss what is actually being said. p48
50% of what though? I would question Lofstedt as well. Lofstedt only mentioned a few specific Regulations that can go - slightly better than Young's daft suggestion of single set of Regulations. The rest of Lofstedt's 35% was aspiration - leaving it to budget-slashed already under-resourced HSE to get in to the detail within a tight deadline. Having said that, at least Lofstedt was constructive in his analysis. I have spent years promoting positive H&S cultures at work - generally successfully - against a back drop of tabloid influence to people who read the anti-H&S press. For Cameron to describe H&S cultures as a 'monster' is undermining to positive and professional H&S management cultures at work and unforgivingly contemptuous to families of people who have been killed due to negligence at work.
jay  
#47 Posted : 10 January 2012 11:01:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

The ones that can be easily consolidated are industry sector specific ( such as mines, diving, docks, quarries, remnants of Factories Act , Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act, Explosives, Petroleum etc), that will not make much difference in the "requirements" that SME's have to meet! Yes, it will make a difference in the numbers that politicians can take credit for. The Republic of Ireland's "Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (General Application) Regulations 2007" has our equivalent of Welfare, PUWER, PPE, Electricity at Work, Working at Height, Noise, Vibration at Work, Young persons, Nursing & expectant mothers, Night/shift working (the safety aspects of working time regs!), First Aid & DSEAR in a single set of regulation, but with different chapters and all the relevant schedules. The outcomes expected will be the SAME, no reduction in burden, except one will claim to have "reduced" 13 regulations into one.
BuzzLightyear  
#48 Posted : 10 January 2012 16:51:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
BuzzLightyear

jay wrote:
The ones that can be easily consolidated are industry sector specific ( such as mines, diving, docks, quarries, remnants of Factories Act , Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act, Explosives, Petroleum etc), that will not make much difference in the "requirements" that SME's have to meet! Yes, it will make a difference in the numbers that politicians can take credit for. The Republic of Ireland's "Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (General Application) Regulations 2007" has our equivalent of Welfare, PUWER, PPE, Electricity at Work, Working at Height, Noise, Vibration at Work, Young persons, Nursing & expectant mothers, Night/shift working (the safety aspects of working time regs!), First Aid & DSEAR in a single set of regulation, but with different chapters and all the relevant schedules. The outcomes expected will be the SAME, no reduction in burden, except one will claim to have "reduced" 13 regulations into one.
I see what you mean Jay. So it's a bit like clearing out old junk in the loft that you had forgotten even existed and giving the impression it will make the rooms in the house tidier!
pete48  
#49 Posted : 10 January 2012 17:44:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

That's exactly the point Buzz. Political infinity? But if at least some of Lofstedt's recommendations are followed up then we will hopefully also find some 'cash in the attic' along the way ;-) p48
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