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MartinP  
#1 Posted : 10 March 2020 13:40:26(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
MartinP

Is anyone aware of any guidance for schools relating to use of alcohol hand sanitiser? I have a number of schools with parents sending kids in with their own and demanding schools provide it too. My concerns are the 60% alcohol and kids and most SDS sheets indicate risks to eyes, ingestion and irritation risks. I know they will have to undertake assessments but wonder if any guidance has been published. Many thanks in advance.

chris.packham  
#2 Posted : 10 March 2020 13:46:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Treat all claims about harm from alcohol sanitisers with extreme caution. The evidence from extensive use in healthcare and from numerous studies is that a properly formulated alcohol sanitiser causes no harm to the skin and can actually act as a mild emollient. If you need more I have a lot of information on this and will be happy to respond off the forum. If you would like more PM me with your contact details.

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stevedm on 13/03/2020(UTC)
Invictus  
#3 Posted : 10 March 2020 13:52:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Dependant on the age of the kids might be worth looking the fire risks, be it purposely done or accident. Also schools don't have to supply it parents are saying that because it's hard to get hold of.

Also don't forget those who might drink it or bully others to.

MartinP  
#4 Posted : 10 March 2020 13:54:43(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
MartinP

Thank you. The request came from a school who were asking if any formal guidance has been published. I agree with your comments and will go back to them. I will contact you if they still worry.

Kate  
#5 Posted : 10 March 2020 15:05:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Guidance for schools is published here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-to-educational-settings-about-covid-19

It says "use an alcohol-based hand sanitiser that contains at least 60% alcohol if soap and water are not available"

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Dazzling Puddock on 10/03/2020(UTC)
Dazzling Puddock  
#6 Posted : 10 March 2020 16:35:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Dazzling Puddock

No shortage of sinks in any school I have ever visited!

Connor35037  
#7 Posted : 10 March 2020 16:37:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Connor35037

It says "use an alcohol-based hand sanitiser that contains at least 60% alcohol if soap and water are not available"

At my old school the Jannie would be quaffing that in the boiler house.

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CptBeaky on 11/03/2020(UTC)
chris.packham  
#8 Posted : 10 March 2020 17:38:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

I now have someone who works for us whose daughter has developed a bad irritant contact dermatitis from the frequent and intensive hand washing that the school is insisting upon. She is now particularly vulnerable to infection as the barrier in her skin is almost non-existent and COVID-19 (and other tranisent micro-organisms) will find it easy to colonise her skin infecting her and potentially others. I have provided the mother with a personal pack of alcohol sanitiser and skin conditioning lotion and told her to tell the school that she must not use the soap unless her hands are visibly soiled. This is only one of several reports I now have that the 'frequent hand washing' advice is resulting in damaged skin, not necessarily at school but in a variety of workplaces, including offices. Why is the official advice ignoring the consequences of frequent hand washing without the additional step of applying a moisturising lotion to restore the lost surface film in the skin that is essential if it is to function as a proper barrier?

thanks 3 users thanked chris.packham for this useful post.
maryam_haider on 11/03/2020(UTC), stevedm on 13/03/2020(UTC), knotty on 13/03/2020(UTC)
Invictus  
#9 Posted : 11 March 2020 06:57:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Originally Posted by: chris.packham Go to Quoted Post

I now have someone who works for us whose daughter has developed a bad irritant contact dermatitis from the frequent and intensive hand washing that the school is insisting upon. She is now particularly vulnerable to infection as the barrier in her skin is almost non-existent and COVID-19 (and other tranisent micro-organisms) will find it easy to colonise her skin infecting her and potentially others. I have provided the mother with a personal pack of alcohol sanitiser and skin conditioning lotion and told her to tell the school that she must not use the soap unless her hands are visibly soiled. This is only one of several reports I now have that the 'frequent hand washing' advice is resulting in damaged skin, not necessarily at school but in a variety of workplaces, including offices. Why is the official advice ignoring the consequences of frequent hand washing without the additional step of applying a moisturising lotion to restore the lost surface film in the skin that is essential if it is to function as a proper barrier?

What are they after a claim. Been asked to wash hands for 4 weeks no way have they got anything. Maybe parents should have madfe them hand wash ewarlier to get used to it.
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stevedm on 13/03/2020(UTC)
chris.packham  
#10 Posted : 11 March 2020 08:07:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

If you knew what frequent handwashing can do to the skin you would not have made that statement. It is a major cause of contact dermatitis among nurses. Each time you wash your hands you remove most of the hydrolipidic film - which is only a few microns thick - from the skin. The result is that frequent hand washing is the most common cause of occupational contact dermatitis. The statement that they were considering a claim is simply not the case. The mother was simply concerned - as I was - to protect her child from what was being done to her.

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maryam_haider on 11/03/2020(UTC), webstar on 11/03/2020(UTC), nic168 on 12/03/2020(UTC), knotty on 13/03/2020(UTC)
Invictus  
#11 Posted : 11 March 2020 10:13:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Originally Posted by: chris.packham Go to Quoted Post

If you knew what frequent handwashing can do to the skin you would not have made that statement. It is a major cause of contact dermatitis among nurses. Each time you wash your hands you remove most of the hydrolipidic film - which is only a few microns thick - from the skin. The result is that frequent hand washing is the most common cause of occupational contact dermatitis. The statement that they were considering a claim is simply not the case. The mother was simply concerned - as I was - to protect her child from what was being done to her.

I do know but what is constant handwashing. Its been about two weeks and kids don't go the oilet that often

chris.packham  
#12 Posted : 11 March 2020 10:42:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Children are being made to wash more frequently that was usual. They are also being made to have their soap on their hands for longer than was normal. The result is now appearing in frequent claims that hands are being damaged. Furthermore, the advice takes no account of those (estimated at around 25% of the population as a whole) who are atopic, i.e. have a genetic modification that makes them particular sensitive to irritants such as soap and water. 

One example from the many documents on my computer:

“A prospective multicentre study evaluating skin tolerance to standard hand hygiene techniques”

This study evaluated the effect on the skin (dryness, irritation) comparing hand washing with alcohol sanitising rubs. From the conclusions . . .

“The results from the 1932 assessments collected show that standard handwashing is a risk factor for dryness and irritation, whereas the alcohol based hand rub causes no skin deterioration and might have a protective effect, particularly in intensive use.”

Chamorey et al, American Journal of Infection Control, 2011, 39, 6-13

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SNS on 11/03/2020(UTC), nic168 on 12/03/2020(UTC)
Invictus  
#13 Posted : 11 March 2020 11:21:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

I suffer myself, showering once a day is bad enough. I wash with soap and water and have suffered since a baby. I am not talking about those who already have a skin condition I am talking about the children who don't and have been asked to wash thier hands more often. I will bet there unless a teacher stands and watches them kids still won't wash and once home bet parents don't insist on iy. 

Dave5705  
#14 Posted : 11 March 2020 12:19:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

Is this not a situation where each case should be dealt with on it's merits?

Clearly if the handwashing is causing sensitization in an individual then that individual should stop washing and use another method. If they have open wounds on their hands which cannot be dressed adequately, maybe they should not be in school at all. Most people will be ok to continue washing at a reasonable rate, ie first thing in the morning upon entering school is all we have changed, after toilet and before lunch has always been a requirement. Any more than that is not based on anything more than hyperbole. How often? Every hour? every 20 mins, every 15? who knows what or who a child has touched in that time. The benefit is not measured on a linear scale.

It's all bows and arrows against the Gods, they are only in school for a short period, are they confined to barracks when they get home?

I know if  I washed my hands stupid often I'd be a bleeding wreck by the end of day two! Perspective and sense are needed here. Yes, it's serious, yes it's awful, but evidence based controls are what we need. When the balance of benefit levels out there is no need to keep piling on the measures.

chris.packham  
#15 Posted : 11 March 2020 12:37:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Apparently the official guidance states wash frequently. This is being interpreted as much more than you have just described. Hence the problem. Remember that childrens' skin is generally more sensitive that adults' Also I wonder whether sufficient attention is being given to rinsing. The same technique as when applying the soap should be used when rinsing to ensure that all the soap (and of course any bacteria/viruses) are rinsed off. It is then important that we replace the lost hydrolipidic film in the skin surface by using a moisturising lotion so that the skin can regain its proper barrier properties. This does not feature in the official guidance as far as I am aware.

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Dave5705 on 11/03/2020(UTC), stevedm on 13/03/2020(UTC), knotty on 13/03/2020(UTC), SJP on 13/03/2020(UTC)
Dave5705  
#16 Posted : 11 March 2020 13:57:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

Agreed Chris.

Unfortunately in the real world that process is just not enforcable, limited staff, limited time, schedules to stick to, make it nigh on impossible to police it properly. We are talking kids here.

And I can just imagine the scene if we said the parents are most welcome to come down to school every 20 mins with a bottle of alcohol gel but they can't leave it at school! Fixing one problem causes another (as usual)

I don't know the answers. What you propose is correct, but I humbly suggest not workable.

Kate  
#17 Posted : 11 March 2020 14:26:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I imagine that a public health message that covered not only why you should wash your hands and when and with what and how but also moisturising them afterwards would be considered too much for many to take in, so onerous that many people would ignore it, and as detracting from the key message about hygiene in a public health emergency.

While passing on the official public health messages as they stand, I have taken to keeping a small pot of hand cream on my desk and encouraging others to do the same.  I'm not keen to either issue these to staff or to provide communal ones as I feel it's more hygienic for people to get and use their own, plus it's a personal responsibility not a work one (outside contexts where the work itself results in a need to wash hands frequently where of course hand cream should be provided).

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aud on 11/03/2020(UTC), nic168 on 12/03/2020(UTC)
lorna  
#18 Posted : 12 March 2020 10:07:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
lorna

Like many others, I'm allergic to most soaps - they contain the dreaded Limonene - & my hands are really suffering. I now carry a small travel bottle of my own liquid soap - easy to pop in my pocket. Personally I won't be using 60% alcohol sanitiser - I restrict that to when I have to visit hospitals, frail elderly relatives.

chris42  
#19 Posted : 12 March 2020 10:54:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

With regard to this general question I would also like to pass on a question (from someone outside of where I work) does any of the alcohol from the sanitisers make it into your blood stream? I had to be honest when asked as said I don’t know; I shouldn’t think so, but did not know for certain. If frequent hand washing does as noted above, damage the skin, would it allow alcohol into your body. I think they were concerned about driving.

It would be nice to know for sure.

Roundtuit  
#20 Posted : 12 March 2020 11:26:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Alcohol, particularly the industrial type used in hand sanitsers can be absorbed.

It is not of sufficient quantity to impact the ability of someone to drive or operate plant (unless they drink it).

As for issues of faith most consider it halal as the intended use is not for oral consumption and it is of manufactured rather than natural origin.

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chris42 on 12/03/2020(UTC), nic168 on 12/03/2020(UTC), chris42 on 12/03/2020(UTC), nic168 on 12/03/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#21 Posted : 12 March 2020 11:26:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Alcohol, particularly the industrial type used in hand sanitsers can be absorbed.

It is not of sufficient quantity to impact the ability of someone to drive or operate plant (unless they drink it).

As for issues of faith most consider it halal as the intended use is not for oral consumption and it is of manufactured rather than natural origin.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
chris42 on 12/03/2020(UTC), nic168 on 12/03/2020(UTC), chris42 on 12/03/2020(UTC), nic168 on 12/03/2020(UTC)
chris.packham  
#22 Posted : 12 March 2020 12:51:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

I have a copy of a study showing that alcohol sanitising rub is not absorbed through the skin. If you would like a copy of this PM me with an e-mail address and I will happily send it to you.

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chris42 on 12/03/2020(UTC)
chris42  
#23 Posted : 12 March 2020 13:51:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Thanks, as long as it is none or very little that is good enough for me. I was just having a chat with someone working in my local market and as they know what I do, asked the question. So not work related as such just interested.

cheers ( I don't mean that in a drinking sort of way , hand wash or otherwise)

chris

chris.packham  
#24 Posted : 13 March 2020 09:43:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

The following are extracts from the material I have for my talks on hand hygiene and infection prevention:

This study evaluated the effect on the skin (dryness, irritation) comparing hand washing with alcohol sanitising rubs. From the conclusions . . .

“The results from the 1932 assessments collected show that standard handwashing is a risk factor for dryness and irritation, whereas the alcohol based hand rub causes no skin deterioration and might have a protective effect, particularly in intensive use.”

A prospective multicentre study evaluating skin tolerance to standard hand hygiene techniques”- Chamorey et al, American Journal of Infection Control, 2011, 39, 6-13

“Despite some methodological flaws and data gaps, evidence for a causal relationship between hand hygiene and reduced transmission of infections is convincing, but frequent hand washing causes skin damage, with resultant changes in microbial flora, increase skin shedding, and risk of transmission of microorganisms, suggesting that some traditional hand hygiene practices warrant re-examination. Some recommended changes in practice include use of waterless alcohol-based products and incorporation of moisturizers into skin care regimens of health care professionals.”

Larssen E, Skin Hygiene and Infection Prevention: More of the Same of Different Approaches?, Clinical Infectious Diseases, 1999, 29, 1287-94

Why is there no mention of moisturising in the official guidance on hand washing?

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SJP on 13/03/2020(UTC)
grim72  
#25 Posted : 13 March 2020 12:54:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
grim72

Just don't let them use it as a lesson in economics for supply and demand https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-51843128

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