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chris.packham  
#961 Posted : 24 November 2020 16:52:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Many, many years ago when I was in my early 'teens' near our cottage in Devon was a mink farm. Animal 'lovers' broke in one night and released them. The result was carnage among our local wildlife. The 'clean up' operation cost a small fortune for the local authority. Even several years later the wildlife population had still not fully recovered. 

CptBeaky  
#962 Posted : 25 November 2020 08:42:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

At the risk of sounding a bit Piers Morgan - in terms of shock value. Blaming the activists for that is like blaming slavery abolitionists for race riots. Maybe if we didn't incarcerate innocent beings in the first place it wouldn't happen.

Don't even get me started on "pardoning a turkey" for thanksgiving. What exactly are they pardoning the turkey for? Crimes against tasting good?

stevedm  
#963 Posted : 25 November 2020 09:58:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

seems this is no longer about covid ...more general rant blog...

I had the unfortunate experience of dealing with animal rights people a few years ago, we supplied some welding gas to the maint department of a research establishment...for that we got our cars covered in paint stripper, excrement thrown into cars and offices, staff physically assaulted at work and at home...there was also a bomb threat...then you look at XR..part of the protest must be the thousands in clean up costs as they don't seem to be able to understand the idea of recycling!...I am against animal cruelty but not against animal control whether that is in the wild or in captivity…

CptBeaky  
#964 Posted : 25 November 2020 10:23:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Originally Posted by: stevedm Go to Quoted Post

seems this is no longer about covid ...more general rant blog...

I had the unfortunate experience of dealing with animal rights people a few years ago, we supplied some welding gas to the maint department of a research establishment...for that we got our cars covered in paint stripper, excrement thrown into cars and offices, staff physically assaulted at work and at home...there was also a bomb threat...then you look at XR..part of the protest must be the thousands in clean up costs as they don't seem to be able to understand the idea of recycling!...I am against animal cruelty but not against animal control whether that is in the wild or in captivity…

I am against intimidation of all forms, be it in the workplace or public. ALF do us no favours. I wouldn't accept my staff or suppliers being subjected to that sort of action, no matter the circumstances. In many ways I am a poor vegan. I still order non-vegan PPE for my workers (I only wear vegan PPE myself). I deal with pest control, I just refuse to set the traps myself. I do the tea round with cow's milk, I just don't have cow's milk myself. etc.

Veganism is a personally held belief that affects most things I do in life, but I have no right to impose that belief on others. In the same way I insist these anti-COVID people have no right to subject others to their belief by putting others at risk. By all means, air your views in a calm, coherant manner, but never put other beings at risk unnecessarily.

To put us vaguely back onto topic, who is looking forward to the chrismtas traffic jams?

thanks 2 users thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 25/11/2020(UTC), peter gotch on 25/11/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#965 Posted : 25 November 2020 11:13:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Animals don’t need the ALF to escape from fur farms; perhaps they are motivated in some way when they realise theirs fates! Anywhere where you have fur farms you have animals escaping. We have had a plague of mink in the Hebrides and the Great Coypu menace in Norfolk. The taxpayer has had to spend huge sums of money clearing up this mess. That was probably as a big a motivation in banning fur farming as any concern for animal welfare. At least we have been keeping raccoon dogs an Asiatic species which is now a pest in eastern Europe.

The health and safety implications of animal control programme are fascinating especially if you realise the people that you hire to do the work are more feral than the animals that they are catching!

Do they spread Covid-19 as well?

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 25/11/2020(UTC)
biker1  
#966 Posted : 25 November 2020 12:01:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

One of the problems in animal control is importing non-native species into our country, which is never a good idea, and other countries have suffered from this problem as well. Think of the rabbit problem in Australia, and what was done about that. There are loads of examples around the world where someone thought it was a good idea, and it ended up having a huge detrimentatl effect on the local wildlife and ecology.

As for the animal rights activists, whilst I agree with stopping mistreatment of animals, which can reach disgusting levels, the tactics of some of these activists are appalling. There was a farm not too far away from us where guinea pigs were bred for scientific research, a controversial issue (there may be a case for drug research, but certainly not for cosmetics). This farm, and anyone who supplied it, were subjected to the most appalling treatment and intimidation, which even extended to grave robbing. There is no way this can be justified. You do not get people on board with a campaign by alienating them with disgusting behaviour.

As for Christmas, I'm afraid I'm in the 'bah humbug' camp.

Brian Hagyard  
#967 Posted : 25 November 2020 13:40:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

I loved the recent posts about the alian conspiracy and think it does us good to have things other than Covid to discuss, and to have a laugh - i think i have seen a greater lack of tollerance as the pandemic has spread and strict control measures are in place. Before falling into H&S I studied Applied Zoology - or killing thinks as i tell my friends. As part of the course we visited one of the Welcome research labolatries. they were looking at pest control - particulay in places like Africa. Some of thye experiments were very unpleasant to watch, but carried out with extream dignaty by the scietists - however i did want to punch the head of IT because of his "they are only animals who cares" attitude. My mum also voluntered me as guinea pig for the Measels vaceen back in the 60's and it never did me any harm (or maybe thats why i cannot spell!)

biker1  
#968 Posted : 25 November 2020 16:26:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Am I alone in thinking that 1. The current 'lockdown' is not a lockdown at all, and 2. the so-called stricter tiered restrictions to be brought in at the end of 'lockdown' are not stricter at all? Some spectators to be allowed at sports events, gyms to open, multiple households mixing at Christmas? Even the experts are baulkng at the last one here. Does anyone understand what the government is doing/thinking (I know I'm making an assumption there)?

At least it's good to see the police are getting a bit stricter with anti-lockdown protesters. Not before time. These selfish idiots are going to prolong the pandemic, something they seem incapable of grasping. They keep chanting 'Freedom' - I don't rate the freedom to get infected and die high on my priorities.

John Murray  
#969 Posted : 25 November 2020 16:59:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

The govt policy remains herd immunity.

The police are onto a hiding for nothing around here. Telling people they should not be out, while the govt lockdown (2) (the sequel) paperwork tells people they can pretty-much do what they like.

Holliday42333  
#970 Posted : 25 November 2020 17:04:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: John Murray Go to Quoted Post

The govt policy remains herd immunity.

Herd immunity actually means herd culling! Human beings are the herd.

This is fine for those people that it doesn't effect in some way.  For everyone else its tantamount to state euthanasia.

Edited by user 25 November 2020 17:08:15(UTC)  | Reason: Spelling etc

Brian Hagyard  
#971 Posted : 26 November 2020 08:54:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post

Am I alone in thinking that 1. The current 'lockdown' is not a lockdown at all, and 2. the so-called stricter tiered restrictions to be brought in at the end of 'lockdown' are not stricter at all? 

Living in what was a tier 3 area (and lickly to remains so) there is only one change that i can see - and that pubs and resturants have to remain closed except for take aways - last time i could go for a meal with my wife but no one else.

Does anyone know what we are doing? I think the answer is no - this is a pandemic because by the very deffinition its wide spread - not just limited to the workplace. The only way at the moment to stop its spread is to eliminate all human contact - but how do we close a whole country down? Sadly if we do not try to maintain the economy more people could die from the conseqencies of that than will die from Covid - realy glad I am not responsible for manageing that balancing act!

stevedm  
#972 Posted : 26 November 2020 09:25:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

I think one of the problems here is that it is turning to be more of a political issue than a public health one...when we talk about deals and funds it is not public health....

Holliday42333  
#973 Posted : 26 November 2020 09:26:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post

Does anyone know what we are doing? I think the answer is no - this is a pandemic because by the very deffinition its wide spread - not just limited to the workplace. The only way at the moment to stop its spread is to eliminate all human contact - but how do we close a whole country down? Sadly if we do not try to maintain the economy more people could die from the conseqencies of that than will die from Covid - realy glad I am not responsible for manageing that balancing act!

In my opinion its the very fact that the UK tried and is trying to maintain the economy that is ruining it.

Pandora (Boris) opened the box in Feb/March by allowing unrestricted international travel into the country, to maintain the economy.  Then had a far reaching but not overwhelming lockdown, to maintain the economy.

All this has just allowed community transmission to proliferate and has had the resultant damage to the economy.

Look at South Australia.  38 community cases, 38, and the whole state goes into the kind of lockdown the UK has baulked at.  Why?  Because they know that this action should eradicate community transmission (small resulting clusters can then be controlled by test and trace) and the ecconomy can then resume unrestricted but for travel quarantine measures.  So 2-3 months of severe restrictions and acconomic hit as apposed to over a year of ecconomic death rattle.

I would imagine Jacinda Ardern calls Boris every day and just says "I told you so" before hanging up.

John Murray  
#974 Posted : 26 November 2020 10:22:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

Given her politics and social awareness, and Johnsons general attitude [to women], I doubt that is what she would have said! I think you ought to consider that the actions taken were more to minimise blame being attached to govt, than to minimise infection. This virus, treated properly, could be a ‘Godsend’ to the problems of overpopulation, unproductive retired elderly and poverty. Signed: Devils Advocate.
biker1  
#975 Posted : 26 November 2020 10:42:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: John Murray Go to Quoted Post
Given her politics and social awareness, and Johnsons general attitude [to women], I doubt that is what she would have said! I think you ought to consider that the actions taken were more to minimise blame being attached to govt, than to minimise infection. This virus, treated properly, could be a ‘Godsend’ to the problems of overpopulation, unproductive retired elderly and poverty. Signed: Devils Advocate.

Anybody remember the film 'Logan's Run'? Perhaps we are moving towards a system of 'Carousel'. I can see lots of people circulating around the ceiling any time now.

Holliday42333  
#976 Posted : 26 November 2020 10:58:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: John Murray Go to Quoted Post
Given her politics and social awareness, and Johnsons general attitude [to women], I doubt that is what she would have said! I think you ought to consider that the actions taken were more to minimise blame being attached to govt, than to minimise infection. This virus, treated properly, could be a ‘Godsend’ to the problems of overpopulation, unproductive retired elderly and poverty. Signed: Devils Advocate.

John, with as much respect as I can muster, could I suggest that your Devils Advocate carefully consider how offensive their comments may be to people who have lost loved ones in the 'Godsend' description you have given.

I wasn't every intending to bring this up in a public medium, but as someone who lost their [unproductive retired elderly] mother to Covid-19 three weeks ago today, your coments, attributed to a philosophical 3rd party are paticularly innapropriate.

Edited by user 26 November 2020 11:02:37(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

biker1  
#977 Posted : 26 November 2020 11:25:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: Holliday42333 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: John Murray Go to Quoted Post
Given her politics and social awareness, and Johnsons general attitude [to women], I doubt that is what she would have said! I think you ought to consider that the actions taken were more to minimise blame being attached to govt, than to minimise infection. This virus, treated properly, could be a ‘Godsend’ to the problems of overpopulation, unproductive retired elderly and poverty. Signed: Devils Advocate.

John, with as much respect as I can muster, could I suggest that your Devils Advocate carefully consider how offensive their comments may be to people who have lost loved ones in the 'Godsend' description you have given.

I wasn't every intending to bring this up in a public medium, but as someone who lost their [unproductive retired elderly] mother to Covid-19 three weeks ago today, your coments, attributed to a philosophical 3rd party are paticularly innapropriate.

I think perhaps we got a bit carried away in trying to inject some ironic humour here, and my apologies for any upset caused by this. 

John Murray  
#978 Posted : 26 November 2020 11:26:45(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

Try attributing your offense towards those that allowed things to get as bad as they are.

Which wasn't, and isn't; me.

One of my friends died early in this pandemic, from a hospital-acquired CV19 infection. I blame those that, for economic reasons, did not ensure that the hospital staff had access to the correct PPE at the time (even though it was a recommendation of the pandemic-modelling).

I am, however, sad at your loss of your mother.

CptBeaky  
#979 Posted : 26 November 2020 13:16:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

I assume the Christmas rules are the only way that they feel they can police a lock down over the Christmas period. The general public have already made it obviously clear that they can't follow rules, and don't give a damn what "big brother" tells them to do.

If there was no relaxing of the rules the police would have to go to every slight break of the rules over the Christmas period, stretching their resources extremely thin. Now they can concentrate on breaking up the big rule breakers.

I am surprised everyone has forgotten about New Year celebrations. In my opinion they are far more likely to be super spreader events than people gathered around a christmas dinner table.

peter gotch  
#980 Posted : 26 November 2020 13:57:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Captain

Think the politicians were left in a no win situation (though after many months of ineffective part actions).

Agree entirely that the relaxations appear to be designed to give the Police a chance to target those who are intent on greater levels of rule-breaking.

However, Nichola Sturgeon was adamant that these relaxations would not be repeated for "The Bells".

But, I imagine that there are many on this thread who will NOT be taking up the offer of relaxing their personal restrictions just because there is a 5 (or 7 in NI) day breather in the UK. 

biker1  
#981 Posted : 26 November 2020 14:29:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

I suppose, on reflection, that it would be very difficult to come up with rules that would be applicable to all people and lifestyles (although I wish the government would try a but harder). For instance, there appears to be no differentiation in the rule about households mixing for Christmas between a household full of people, or one that just has one person living in it, who is probably also largely isolated. The infection risk is significantly different for these two scenarios. In a sane country, we should be able to apply common sense to what we do, but for far too many people in this country, this has so far proved impossible. Add to this the dithering by government resulting in conflicting advice and a lack of support for the police, and we end up with a very confusing situation.

Winter hibernation is looking an attractve idea at the moment.

biker1  
#982 Posted : 30 November 2020 13:21:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Some interesting questions come to mind:

1. Will there be enough places in secure mental hospitals for the anti-lockdown protesters?

2. Now that Dominic Cummings has left Downing Street, will he be popping back to Barnard Castle, or Specsavers?

3. Will Donald Trump be taking up golf as a new career?

4. When will the watchtowers and barbed wire be going up at the Welsh and Scottish borders?

5. Have the COVID test kits appeared on Ebay yet?

6. Will Jeff Bezos be dressing up as Santa Claus, as he seems to have got the Christmas contract this year?

N Hancock  
#983 Posted : 30 November 2020 15:07:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
N Hancock

Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post

Some interesting questions come to mind:

1. Will there be enough places in secure mental hospitals for the anti-lockdown protesters?

Well im firmly in the anti lock down camp and fed up listening to your nonsense.

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The Iron Chicken on 30/11/2020(UTC)
biker1  
#984 Posted : 30 November 2020 15:57:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: N Hancock Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post

Some interesting questions come to mind:

1. Will there be enough places in secure mental hospitals for the anti-lockdown protesters?

Well im firmly in the anti lock down camp and fed up listening to your nonsense.

I'm fed up with listening to the nonsense from the anti-lockdown protesters, so I guess that makes us even.
thanks 1 user thanked biker1 for this useful post.
flysafe on 01/12/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#985 Posted : 30 November 2020 21:50:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post

3. Will Donald Trump be taking up golf as a new career?

4. When will the watchtowers and barbed wire be going up at the Welsh and Scottish borders?

Q3 - not as a professional - they have rules which mean he would constantly be sulking even if he owns the course

Q4 - she thinks being separate form the UK AND eventually a member of Europe means there will be no "hard border" obviously missed all the anguish over the N.I./Eire arrangements for the last four years.The Welsh on the other hand have a very active police force and very few entry roads to cover.

Roundtuit  
#986 Posted : 30 November 2020 21:50:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post

3. Will Donald Trump be taking up golf as a new career?

4. When will the watchtowers and barbed wire be going up at the Welsh and Scottish borders?

Q3 - not as a professional - they have rules which mean he would constantly be sulking even if he owns the course

Q4 - she thinks being separate form the UK AND eventually a member of Europe means there will be no "hard border" obviously missed all the anguish over the N.I./Eire arrangements for the last four years.The Welsh on the other hand have a very active police force and very few entry roads to cover.

A Kurdziel  
#987 Posted : 01 December 2020 09:49:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Donald Trump and Golf  look at this article from the New Yorker which says it all-

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/donald-trump-the-serial-golf-cheat-in-the-white-house

 

As to border watchtowers : I am waiting for them along with the associated antipersonnel minefield on the border between the smug South and angry North…

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biker1 on 01/12/2020(UTC)
biker1  
#988 Posted : 01 December 2020 10:02:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

It has been my observation that anti-lockdown protesters (and those against other measures to protect the public) fall into one or more of the following categories:

1. The lockdown and tiered restrictions have no effect on the spread of the virus (despite evidence to the contrary)

2. It's a global conspiracy to control people (I'm sure the UN would be most impressed with such an international collaboration)

3. It's a question of personal freedom (which presumably includes the freedom to get infected and die, and it's not just their personal freedom at stake here)

4. It's all a disproporionate response to a relatively low fatality rate (tell that to the families of the tens of thousands who have died, and the even larger number suffering terrible effects from the virus)

5. They are being told a pack of lies about the pandemic (not by everybody, and most of the 'lies' are more to do with incompetence)

6. It's just a bad type of flu, and nothing to worry about (see point 4, and the virus has already killed many times more people than flu does)

7. We have to abandon the restrictions to save the economy (who are we saving it for, if half the population is dead?)

Have I missed anything?

CptBeaky  
#989 Posted : 01 December 2020 10:03:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

I live on the Leicestershire/Northamptonshire border, I feel my house my be in the middle of that minefield! Still I am sure someone will argue that mines are safe, it is the ground they are buried in that is killing you...

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A Kurdziel on 01/12/2020(UTC)
N Hancock  
#990 Posted : 01 December 2020 10:44:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
N Hancock

I will actually go one step further, I think 'covid secure' is nonsense.  Seems us EHS professionals have forgotten one thing in all this - how humans actually behave, their instincts and needs.

And while lockdowns work, they work until restrictions are lifted.  Then the rate goes back up.  The virus will run its course regardless.

Fortunately, I don’t feel the need to constantly slag off the public though and those with an alternative view.

 

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The Iron Chicken on 02/12/2020(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#991 Posted : 01 December 2020 11:21:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55017301

It seems that we are discovering ways of measuring the damage done to the survivors of COVID-19, that are still suffering (long-COVID, as it has become to be known). Using (inhaled) xenon gas in MRI scans they can see areas of the lungs that continue to have poor air flow. It is estimated that up to 10% of COVID cases can result in this sort of damage. If we were to go with herd culling, then let it sink in how many people may have long term illness from this, it would run into the millions.

This is why conspiracy theorists talk about "survival rating". It is a black and white number that looks good, but takes nothing into account of the long term suffering of the victims or their relatives. 99.77% sounds like great survival odds, but put it another way. If only 99.77% of aeroplanes made it to their destination without crashing then nobody would fly. That would be 3 crashes per day at Heathrow alone.

I am still waiting to hear from the "lockdowns don't work" people as to why cases fell by 30% during the latest lockdown. Was it yet another coincidence? One of a long line of coincidences of every country that has had to fall back on to lockdowns? And also, why is it that countries that are better at adopting face coverings don't seem to need lockdowns?

Basically what evidence will change your mind? If the answer is "none" then you don't have a position of belief, you have a position of faith.

achrn  
#992 Posted : 01 December 2020 11:29:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post

7. We have to abandon the restrictions to save the economy (who are we saving it for, if half the population is dead?)

That's exactly the sort of hyperbole you're being critical of others over.

You can't (coherenrtly) lambast those that favour fewer restrictions for excessively downplaying the severity and then in the next breath excessively overhype the severity of the disease.

These measures are doing serious harm to lots of people which will continue a long time in the future.  Pretending they are just moaning about not being able to have a party for a week is not appropriate.  Labelling them as mentaly dangerous and ought to be locked up is offensive.  The newly adult already get the short end of the stick in many respects (compared to teh baby boomers) and they are getting an ever worse deal for the next several decades. 

It's a perfectly reasonable argument to say that we shouldn't knee-jerk and put hundreds of thousands into long-term unemployment and a lifetime of poverty in reponse to a disease that not as bad as some make out (if we found something with the outcomes of ebola and the infectiousness of measles, then we'd know what pandemic really looks like).

These things need sensible debate, not a labelling of anyone that holds a differnet opinion of what the appropriate balance of response shoudl be as being stupid or irresponsible or belonging in "secure mental hospitals".

thanks 4 users thanked achrn for this useful post.
N Hancock on 01/12/2020(UTC), Brian Hagyard on 01/12/2020(UTC), Kate on 01/12/2020(UTC), The Iron Chicken on 02/12/2020(UTC)
N Hancock  
#993 Posted : 01 December 2020 11:58:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
N Hancock

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55017301

It seems that we are discovering ways of measuring the damage done to the survivors of COVID-19, that are still suffering (long-COVID, as it has become to be known). Using (inhaled) xenon gas in MRI scans they can see areas of the lungs that continue to have poor air flow. It is estimated that up to 10% of COVID cases can result in this sort of damage. If we were to go with herd culling, then let it sink in how many people may have long term illness from this, it would run into the millions.

This is why conspiracy theorists talk about "survival rating". It is a black and white number that looks good, but takes nothing into account of the long term suffering of the victims or their relatives. 99.77% sounds like great survival odds, but put it another way. If only 99.77% of aeroplanes made it to their destination without crashing then nobody would fly. That would be 3 crashes per day at Heathrow alone.

I am still waiting to hear from the "lockdowns don't work" people as to why cases fell by 30% during the latest lockdown. Was it yet another coincidence? One of a long line of coincidences of every country that has had to fall back on to lockdowns? And also, why is it that countries that are better at adopting face coverings don't seem to need lockdowns?

Basically what evidence will change your mind? If the answer is "none" then you don't have a position of belief, you have a position of faith.

Lockdowns work till they end, we cannot live in lockdown forever.  As for your point on masks they haven’t helped out countries such as France and Spain where outdoor use is mandated.  I gave up following propaganda on the BBC months ago, but regarding your link it is terrible and I have a colleague suffering from it myself. The Majority of the population will still be fine though without hospitalisation and make a full recovery from Covid. I fear the damage being done to young children and was reading a report yesterday of children getting OCD and feeling suicidal from covid measures.

 As for masks, there is still evidence out there stating they are not beneficial, it’s not in our culture to wear them and all we have now is 1000s of people every day touching their mask and touching other surfaces. No quality control and in my opinion mere props. Thankfully, the UK is not somewhere like China where they simply screw you into your home.

As for people doing normal human things, hate to break it to you but they will. 

Got to be honest here, i am questioning everything now.  Rules which ignore natural human behaviour ? Yes social distancing works great in text books, it doesnt fit real life. Its certainly not sustainable.

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The Iron Chicken on 02/12/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#994 Posted : 01 December 2020 12:14:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Boris Johnson has gotten to where he is at now(highest office in the land) by simply telling people what they want to hear. So if he is talking to people at a right wing fringe meeting he would tell them that it’s all down to uncontrolled migration and as soon he was in power he would put a stop to all of that and bring back hanging as bonus. If he was talking to business leaders, he would say the UK was open for business and of course they would not be any attempt to make the immigration of skilled( and cheap) foreign workers more difficult. He has been lying like this since he was a journalist and he has gotten away with it because he believes deep inside that politics is just game and you tell people what they want to hear you can get away with it. Unfortunately, politics as we poor sods in the real world know only too well is not a game. It is to do with actual people’s lives, which means at some point you have to come up with a plan which might deliver but will in the process upset some people somewhere. Boris has to yet accepted that: he and the government want to have it both ways. That   they want to stop the covid outbreak but with no long term impact on  the economy. He can’t grasp that, that is impossible and that it takes true leadership to get people to accept that some sort of compromise is inevitable and ultimately everybody will be disappointed.

CptBeaky  
#995 Posted : 01 December 2020 12:35:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Originally Posted by: N Hancock Go to Quoted Post

Lockdowns work till they end, we cannot live in lockdown forever.

I fear the damage being done to young children and was reading a report yesterday of children getting OCD and feeling suicidal from covid measures.

 As for masks, there is still evidence out there stating they are not beneficial, it’s not in our culture to wear them.

 Rules which ignore natural human behaviour ? Yes social distancing works great in text books, it doesnt fit real life. Its certainly not sustainable.

https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/news/hidden-damage-lungs-covid-19-revealed-new-study-university-sheffield

if you don't trust the BBC how about that link?

I don't think anyone was arguing for an eternal lockdown. In fact most of us (myself) included think that lockdowns are the symptom of control failure. Lockdowns are only necessary when the virus gets out of hand again. It needs to be controlable, else the predictions are dire.

Losing loved ones to a virus will also cause OCD and suicidal thoughts in children. We can not know the results of the mental health impact of this virus for many years. It seems that suddenly everyone cares about mental health, despite the fact that it has been the biggest killer of young men for years. The mental health angle seem to be a tool people are using to justify herd culling. The fact that it is being used as a tool shows how little these people actually care.

There is more evidence to face coverings efficacy than the counterpoint. The issue is with enforcement and the other controls in place. We have linked to more than enough studies showing how they work etc.

Are you really arguing for mob rule here? You seem to be saying that we shouldn't make any rules that go against human behaviour. I don't want to strawman you, but isn't that the point of most laws? We make laws to stop people doing what they may otherwise do.

Again, what evidence would you need to show that herd culling is not the way forward?

thanks 2 users thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 01/12/2020(UTC), biker1 on 02/12/2020(UTC)
biker1  
#996 Posted : 01 December 2020 13:02:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: N Hancock Go to Quoted Post

Fortunately, I don’t feel the need to constantly slag off the public though and those with an alternative view.

Just your fellow OSH professionals, eh?

Although my comment about anti-lockdown protesters being in secure mental hospitals was tongue in cheek, I think there is an element of truth in it. How else would you describe people who crowd together in meetings, completely ignoring a highly infectious disease, and try to bully other people into taking off their masks? How else would you describe people who even deny the existence of a disease that has killed tens of thousands of people in this country, and resulted in serious ill-health for an even greater number? How else would you describe people who trot out conspiracy theories with no factual basis? How else would you describe people who value their 'freedom' above the lives of their fellow citizens? These do not seem to me to be the actions of totally sane rational people.

achrn  
#997 Posted : 01 December 2020 13:51:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post

Although my comment about anti-lockdown protesters being in secure mental hospitals was tongue in cheek,

The 'I was only joking' defence. 

Well, I guess it worked for Trump.

N Hancock  
#998 Posted : 01 December 2020 14:23:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
N Hancock

Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: N Hancock Go to Quoted Post

Fortunately, I don’t feel the need to constantly slag off the public though and those with an alternative view.

Just your fellow OSH professionals, eh?

Although my comment about anti-lockdown protesters being in secure mental hospitals was tongue in cheek, I think there is an element of truth in it. How else would you describe people who crowd together in meetings, completely ignoring a highly infectious disease, and try to bully other people into taking off their masks? How else would you describe people who even deny the existence of a disease that has killed tens of thousands of people in this country, and resulted in serious ill-health for an even greater number? How else would you describe people who trot out conspiracy theories with no factual basis? How else would you describe people who value their 'freedom' above the lives of their fellow citizens? These do not seem to me to be the actions of totally sane rational people.

Human !  thats what I would call them.   Proves my point you are failing to recongnise human behaviour.

thanks 1 user thanked N Hancock for this useful post.
The Iron Chicken on 02/12/2020(UTC)
biker1  
#999 Posted : 01 December 2020 14:35:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post

Although my comment about anti-lockdown protesters being in secure mental hospitals was tongue in cheek,

The 'I was only joking' defence. 

Well, I guess it worked for Trump.

Well, I guess you missed the point of my post, but never mind.
biker1  
#1000 Posted : 01 December 2020 14:39:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: N Hancock Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: N Hancock Go to Quoted Post

Fortunately, I don’t feel the need to constantly slag off the public though and those with an alternative view.

Just your fellow OSH professionals, eh?

Although my comment about anti-lockdown protesters being in secure mental hospitals was tongue in cheek, I think there is an element of truth in it. How else would you describe people who crowd together in meetings, completely ignoring a highly infectious disease, and try to bully other people into taking off their masks? How else would you describe people who even deny the existence of a disease that has killed tens of thousands of people in this country, and resulted in serious ill-health for an even greater number? How else would you describe people who trot out conspiracy theories with no factual basis? How else would you describe people who value their 'freedom' above the lives of their fellow citizens? These do not seem to me to be the actions of totally sane rational people.

Human !  thats what I would call them.   Proves my point you are failing to recongnise human behaviour.

Oh, they're human! Well, that makes it alright then. I'll just ignore their appalling behaviour.

A Kurdziel  
#1001 Posted : 01 December 2020 16:11:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Good piece about why people believe in "conspiracies"  and how you can challenge them

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/29/how-to-deal-with-a-conspiracy-theorist-5g-covid-plandemic-qanon

thanks 2 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
peter gotch on 01/12/2020(UTC), chris42 on 02/12/2020(UTC)
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