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A Kurdziel  
#1001 Posted : 02 December 2020 15:26:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I have just been reading about the logistics of distributing the new Pfizer vaccine which has to be kept at -70 °C. One problem is that there is  apparently a global shortage of dry ice-solid carbon dioxide- so much for global warming due to rising CO2 levels!

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
Kim Hedges on 07/12/2020(UTC)
biker1  
#1002 Posted : 02 December 2020 16:32:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Ouch! That is going to one cold injection!

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Kim Hedges on 07/12/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#1003 Posted : 03 December 2020 20:42:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Better get those jabs out quick - some numpty (Grant Shapps) thinks it is OK to suspend quarantine rules for "high flying" executives.

If it is a virus carrier, then it is a carrier - the virus does not pick to only travel "cattle" class as it does not pay for its journey - the "celebrities et al" who travel regardless of rules are the more likely spreaders.

Lets not forget one of the first UK casualties was a commercial traveller who stopped off to ski in Italy returning from Wuhan. This year quite a few ski resorts will be closed - again most likely just for the general public.

Roundtuit  
#1004 Posted : 03 December 2020 20:42:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Better get those jabs out quick - some numpty (Grant Shapps) thinks it is OK to suspend quarantine rules for "high flying" executives.

If it is a virus carrier, then it is a carrier - the virus does not pick to only travel "cattle" class as it does not pay for its journey - the "celebrities et al" who travel regardless of rules are the more likely spreaders.

Lets not forget one of the first UK casualties was a commercial traveller who stopped off to ski in Italy returning from Wuhan. This year quite a few ski resorts will be closed - again most likely just for the general public.

A Kurdziel  
#1005 Posted : 04 December 2020 09:23:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Having had a chance to look back at the spread of the virus back in February it looks like the government made a major error. They assumed that the only source of the germ was China and as result focussed all of their attention on controlling that route of entry, but it now looks it spread through nice middle class areas quicker than expected. This they reckon is linked to people going on skiing holidays last winter. You remember that Northern Italy was the centre of the first European outbreak and although travel to Italy was restricted skiing resorts often spread across borders. Interestingly this year the authorities have closed the borders in ski areas and cross-frontier  runs have been closed. So, it was the nice middle class Daily Wail readers that spread the germs not the plebs.

See https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/12/failures-at-austrian-ski-resort-helped-speed-up-spread-of-covid-19-in-europe  

biker1  
#1006 Posted : 04 December 2020 10:49:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Interesting. I remember reading early on in the pandemic that India had had very few infections at that time, but they did trace one hotspot to tourists from Italy visiting. They closed their borders, which is something we failed to do in the UK, despite one expert stating that incoming visitors were a major source of spread. His warning fell on deaf ears at the government.

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Kim Hedges on 09/12/2020(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#1007 Posted : 04 December 2020 11:13:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

On a different note. I am been looking into how the vaccine was developed so quickly. Mostly due to the common objection that I hear against taken the vaccine (i.e. it has been rushed through, therefore it isn't safe). Interestingly it is not really about the amount of money thrown at the project, although that did help alot, it is more due to the nature of the pandemic itself.

When a vaccine is tested it is obviously put into volunteers who are then released into the public. Ethically, scientists are not allowed to introduce the subjects to the pathogen, they have to let nature take its course. As we all know, half the subjects are given a placebo and the other half the vaccine, and no-one is told which is which.

Then it is a waiting game. Basically they have to wait until a certain number of people in the test have been infected. For less common diseases this can take years. Currently it doesn't take long for that tipping point to be reached with respect to COVID-19, given the widespread transmission. They then collect the data of those that contracted the disease compare the results of the placebo vs the vaccine and do the maths.

Obviously this is a gross simplification, but it does highlight why it is quicker to make vaccines for a pandemic than a low level disease.

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biker1 on 04/12/2020(UTC), Kim Hedges on 09/12/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#1008 Posted : 04 December 2020 11:46:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The reason why it normally takes 10 years or so to develop a new vaccine or medical product is not simply due to the complexity of the process but due instead to money issues. The process goes something like this:

  1. You have an idea for a new treatment, but you need to test out the theory behind it. This requires funding  so then you have to write grant applications to who ever you think might be interested. A college of mine described this as “dicking about” ie waiting for some money to turn up.
  2. Assuming you have got your money you do your research project and if you get a good result you now have to think about making this into a usable product which requires loads more money and so  more “dicking about” until  this money arrives. At each stage, the amount of money involved gets bigger, so  the grant applications become harder. Imagine Dragons Den times ten.
  3. So, you have something resembling a product you now have to get into small scale manufacturing to prove you can make it in sufficient quantities and to a standard consistency.
  4. So now the big bucks start; you have to prove to the regulators that it is “Safe” ( ie the side effects are worth it) it is Efficacious( it make people better) and Quality assured ( you make it in a large enough quantities to a hight standard, to make it worthwhile). This is the phase 1-3 trials that they talk about in the media.  The testing involves thousands of volunteers and costs 10’s or even 100’s of  millions of pounds.

 

What ahs happened in relation to covid is that money has been thrown at the issue and the amount of “dicking about” substantially reduced.  Some of the vaccines for example the Oxford vaccine was actually developed to work like this. Essentially, they developed a carrier virus  years ago, which could be adapted to act as a vaccine for any viral disease. They knew the carrier was safe which is why they could fast track the vaccine.

 None of the required steps have been removed and no corners cut. It just the time between  steps that has disappeared. Of course, this means that a significant amount of  money will have been wasted on treatments that might not work in the long run but it has been decided to accept that  risk during  this emergency.

thanks 3 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
biker1 on 04/12/2020(UTC), CptBeaky on 04/12/2020(UTC), Kim Hedges on 09/12/2020(UTC)
Holliday42333  
#1009 Posted : 04 December 2020 11:49:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

Having had a chance to look back at the spread of the virus back in February it looks like the government made a major error. They assumed that the only source of the germ was China and as result focussed all of their attention on controlling that route of entry, but it now looks it spread through nice middle class areas quicker than expected. This they reckon is linked to people going on skiing holidays last winter. You remember that Northern Italy was the centre of the first European outbreak and although travel to Italy was restricted skiing resorts often spread across borders. Interestingly this year the authorities have closed the borders in ski areas and cross-frontier  runs have been closed. So, it was the nice middle class Daily Wail readers that spread the germs not the plebs.

See https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/12/failures-at-austrian-ski-resort-helped-speed-up-spread-of-covid-19-in-europe  

Back at the end of February, a personal aquaintance of mine who is an NHS consultant went on an extra ski holiday to the alps (as it was a cheap last minute deal, unsurprisingly).  They got all three main Covid-19 symptoms whilst in a resort with an known outbreak.  Whilst they did personally isolate (but not their partner) both in the resort and in the UK, during this isolation they travelled home via three airports.  Two of these airports are major international transport hubs.  To do this, to get past the health screening at the departure airport they overmedicated with NSIADs to bring their raging temperature down and told the officials their general pallor was due to a gastrointestinal illness.

Whilst the Government has a lot to answer for, without doubt, the actions of individuals at all stages of the pandemic have played a massive role in the impact to us all.

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biker1 on 04/12/2020(UTC), CptBeaky on 04/12/2020(UTC), A Kurdziel on 04/12/2020(UTC), Kim Hedges on 09/12/2020(UTC)
John Murray  
#1010 Posted : 04 December 2020 11:57:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

I suppose you could, by stretching the point, state that an mRNA injection is a vaccine. Instead of injecting viral coatings, inactivated or partially inactivated virus, they inject an encapsulated mRNA string that encodes for a cell surface protein that mimics a viral infection. I'll wait for the Astra/Oxford one, it is more conventional !

biker1  
#1011 Posted : 04 December 2020 12:01:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Some very useful information on the development of the vaccine, thanks guys. I guess the issue about introducing the pathogen to the person was somewhat diffferent in the case of volunteers for the cold research centre. It would be unethical to deliberately infect someone with COVID (although technically that is what you are doing on a tiny scale with vacccinations). 

There is no doubt that some people have acted very irresponsibly during the crisis, although I would have expected far better from an NHS consultant (I would have taken paracetamol myself if it was to lower my temperature, but in any event it was a grossly irresponsible thing to do).

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Kim Hedges on 09/12/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#1012 Posted : 04 December 2020 13:03:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Nothing unethical with infecting people with a disease. In fact, they  are looking for volunteers right now: any takers?  Its all based on informed consent: you know what you have signed up for and there have not been any untoward inducements. For example, in the past prisoners in some countries were told that they would get time off their sentence if the volunteered to be infected. The main guidance on this is the Declaration of Helsinki. It was written in 1964 but has been updated 7 times, last in 2013.

The reason why we don’t have a vaccine for the common cold is that the “common cold” is caused  loads of different viruses. About half are caused by the rhinovirus(rhino means nose)  but even though that is thought of as one species it has hundreds of substrains. There is not one antigen that is common to all of the substrains which means to protect you from the virus you would have to be inoculated with dozens of different vaccines which could overload the immune system and cause more problems than the disease itself, which is of course just a cold.  About 15%  of  “colds” are caused by various types of coronavirus. We have know about this since the 1960’s but nobody was that bothered until SARS came along and then we realised that they can be very nasty.

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Kim Hedges on 09/12/2020(UTC)
Alan Haynes  
#1013 Posted : 06 December 2020 10:29:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alan Haynes

Originally Posted by: John Murray Go to Quoted Post
....... ..... ... I'll wait for the Astra/Oxford one, it is more conventional !
I think you'll have a long wait - you won't be able to 'Pick and Choose' which vaccine to have.
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Kim Hedges on 09/12/2020(UTC)
John Murray  
#1014 Posted : 06 December 2020 21:33:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

Doubt that. The vaccine is entering its phase 3 trials now and the UK govt has contracted for 100 million doses.

I can certainly chose to have, or not have, any vaccine. And since the makers name is on the package, I can easily decline any I don't want.

And no, I am not an anti-vaxxer. In fact, I have received several out-of-licence vaccinations in the past 5 years.

I just know the history of the makers of the leading mRNA vaccine.

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Kim Hedges on 09/12/2020(UTC)
Kim Hedges  
#1015 Posted : 07 December 2020 14:16:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kim Hedges

I keep screaming at the TV when I hear nonsence spoken by what I thought were intelligent people.  Yesterday, Sunday mornings broadcast (I recorded it), the BBC presenters repeating anti vaxer fears - totally false statements. 

BBC stop spreading doubt and and start informing the public.  Simply don't say anything about these nutters and their flat earth mentality.  

peter gotch  
#1016 Posted : 07 December 2020 14:27:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Kim 

Welcome back.

Bet you didn't envisage this thread getting 1000+ responses when you posted it!

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A Kurdziel on 07/12/2020(UTC), Kim Hedges on 09/12/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#1017 Posted : 07 December 2020 15:47:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I think when we went into the first lockdown back in March, most of us assumed that it would be over  in a month or two as the government would have an exit strategy to decide what was the new normal. But no: they are just making it up as they go along thinking maybe two weeks ahead.

They need to decide what the end game is going to look like. When we started this I said, bringing I the measures is easy deciding when enough is enough is going to be difficult.   Unfortunately, they seem to have raised people’s expectations by implying that these vaccines will enable us to turn the clock back to what it was like pre-covid.  It ain’t, going to happen but what will the new normal look like?

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Kim Hedges on 09/12/2020(UTC)
chris.packham  
#1018 Posted : 07 December 2020 16:04:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

One of the problems that face us all, and in particular our leaders who have to decide how to manage this pandemic, is that we have very little previous relevant experience on which to base a strategy on. Inevitably, then, it will be a situation of to a large extent 'make it up as we go'.  What is important is that we glean as much from both scientific knowledge and developments as we can and learn from experience gained. Neither seems to be something in our current leaders understanding as far as I can see. Rather I gain the impression that the guiding principle is to tell us what they think will convince us that they know what they are doing and pretend that it is based on the scientific evidence, the latter being generally either ignored or selectively chosen as seen as supporting their policies. For example test and trace. This cannot prevent the infection spreading as it tests only for what is in the body and not the colonisation of the skin which can subsequently spread the virus. Nor that frequent hand washing - without appropriate reconditioning of the skin - renders that skin more easily colonised by SARS-Cov-2 and other infective micro-organisms; properly formulated alcohol sanitiser is both more effective and has been shown to actually improve skin condition. And what is being done to produce a standard for facial coverings to ensure that they all actually provide the level of protection needed?

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biker1 on 08/12/2020(UTC), A Kurdziel on 09/12/2020(UTC), Kim Hedges on 09/12/2020(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#1019 Posted : 09 December 2020 12:51:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: SLord80 Go to Quoted Post

  1. "Another prediction is that areas hit the hardest in the spring will not now see any great number of cases and deaths. I point simply to London ..... It is over, there. It is most unlikely to return

Always nice to return to see how the predictions given in that "expert paper" are coming along. Currently it looks like London will be placed in tier 3 with the next few days. As I said before, science is born out by its predictive power. i.e. if this is true, then this will happen. If it fails that test, then the hypothesis is wrong. Create a new hypothesis and try again.

So far all the predictions from those that debate the nature of the disease and the controls put in place are not coming true. The USA will hit 300k cases very soon, despite their outgoing leader saying that it would be below 125k and that would be a "very good number".

If you look back at my comments when first asked about the nature of COVID (before the pandemic was announced), I too dismissed it. However, when faced with new evidence I changed my opinion to fit in line with that evidence.

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Kim Hedges on 09/12/2020(UTC), flysafe on 09/12/2020(UTC)
chris.packham  
#1020 Posted : 09 December 2020 13:49:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

As Professor Brian Cox so succinctly put it in his book Why Does E=MC2?: ‘In science, there are no universal truths, just views of the world that have yet to be proven false.’ In my own work I have had to revise some of my views as new scientific evidence has emerged and expect to have to continue to do so as long as I remain active therein.

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Kim Hedges on 09/12/2020(UTC)
Kim Hedges  
#1021 Posted : 09 December 2020 15:11:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kim Hedges

All the talk yesterday was the hypebol of the 2nd vaccine, (Russia's Spunik 5 was first, even if it is only 55% effective I seem to remember).

It also makes me laugh when I saw a video on facebook from the Green Party who pointed out that this Phizer vaccine is only here because the UK Government placed orders before anyone else, so the bulk of the money will go to the US company. 

It wasn't until later in the night I managed to find the days recorded death rates.......

616

I watch the CNN news every day too, their running figures of deaths and infections are far worse, but that is the result of corrupt politics from that liar P. Trump, so much for political oversight.  There are meant to be checks and balances that are meant to stop this from happening - guess what, it happened.  P. Biden elect has his work cut out for his first 100 days.  I did note, that he has completely avoided telling people to increase hygene by washing their hands and 2 metre or 6 feet social distancing, he simply talked about wearing a mask - which is a stupid oversight.  So it is expected that in the next 2 weeks, up to 4000 people a day could be dying from C19 because so many Americans refused to listen to the CDC and state officials saying don't travel, in last weeks Thanks Giving.  Stupid People. 

   

The Iron Chicken  
#1022 Posted : 09 December 2020 16:20:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

Oh dear. Are you lot still thinking this is about a virus?

CptBeaky  
#1023 Posted : 10 December 2020 11:53:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

The USA has just recorded the hightest daily death rate so far. Over 3000 people had COVID-19 mentioned as a contributary factor in their death yesterday. That is more people than died in the twin tower terror attacks.

New Jersey has a death rate of  around 1 person in every 500, which highlights how deadly this virus can be.

On a side note, we had a worker diagnosed with pneumonia last week, this shows that COVID-19 is a separate and identifable disease. Too often I hear that COVID-19 is just other respiratory diseases being fobbed off as COVID-19. Thankfully our worker made a full recovery, and didn't contract COVID-19 at the same time.

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Alan Haynes on 10/12/2020(UTC)
John Murray  
#1024 Posted : 10 December 2020 13:32:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

The USA has just recorded the hightest daily death rate so far. Over 3000 people had COVID-19 mentioned as a contributary factor in their death yesterday. That is more people than died in the twin tower terror attacks.

New Jersey has a death rate of  around 1 person in every 500, which highlights how deadly this virus can be.

On a side note, we had a worker diagnosed with pneumonia last week, this shows that COVID-19 is a separate and identifable disease. Too often I hear that COVID-19 is just other respiratory diseases being fobbed off as COVID-19. Thankfully our worker made a full recovery, and didn't contract COVID-19 at the same time.

But if he had contracted CV19, he would almost certainly have had pneumonia as a consequence.

I'll repeat this; The virus has killed nobody, it was the cause, of the cause, of death. Deaths are from other causes (excess mucous leading to pneumonia, then becoming systemic, then sepsis and then death etc).

A country with a history of personal freedom, and inherent distrust of govt, and a population of over 300 million, was always going to be hit hard in a pandemic!

Kate  
#1025 Posted : 10 December 2020 13:52:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Except that Covid-19 is not a virus.  It is a condition caused by a virus, which is named SARS-COV-2.  This condition can indeed be fatal.

John Murray  
#1026 Posted : 10 December 2020 14:40:28(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

Good point.

COVID-19 is not a single disease, but a plethora of diseases and/or systemic failures. Which leads to the inevitable consideration that perhaps many of the deaths were not a result of infection with SARS-COV-2, leading to COVID-19, but that many may have died anyway, of their multiple co-morbidities, and just have been infected with the virus, which caused them no problems?

So now we are proceeding with mass inoculation of the population, including many who would have had no problems if infected with the virus, with little, if any, evidence of its long-term value (or its long-term effects. It is after all, a 'novel' vaccine) (which had persons with known allergies excluded from the trials) (and persons with antibodies to several other virus).

chris.packham  
#1027 Posted : 10 December 2020 14:50:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

So true, and another reason why the vaccines are not a simple silver bullet that will make the problem go away. The only pandemic we know where the illness has been eradicated completely is smallpox. Now consider what the WHO published when they reviewed the global drive that was so successful.

From the WHO website:

‘Before 1967, the smallpox eradication strategy relied on mass vaccination. However, this strategy was ineffective in densely populated regions where containment measures proved more effective.’

‘Prevention activities aimed to stop transmission by finding and treating anyone who had been in close contact with infected people, thereby preventing transmission to others.’

So we will almost certainly have to maintain our other measures to prevent the spread of the virus for quite some time. Will the new normal be somewhat slow in arriving?

biker1  
#1028 Posted : 10 December 2020 15:02:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

A question of semantics here. Nobody dies from HIV/AIDS, it's the other conditions which the body would have either not developed, or fought off, which kills them. No-one dies from other conditions such as multiple sclerosis, it's the complications that set in that kill them. COVID is a similar case- people who contract it will die from things like multple organ failure, chronic respiratory failure etc. Some of them might have died anyway, but contracting the virus precipitated such causes, and led to their demise. Did COVID kill them? Well, strictly speaking, no, but contracting the virus amounted to the same thing. They would not have died, or died at that time, were it not for contracting the virus. I suppose it is a similar thing to influenza, which 'kills' around two thousand people a year in the UK, but strictly speaking it wasn't the flu virus per se that killed them, it was the effects on their respiratory systems etc as a result of flu that killed them. In terms of causes of death, it amounts to the same thing.

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CptBeaky on 14/12/2020(UTC)
John Murray  
#1029 Posted : 10 December 2020 15:07:52(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

Consider Smallpox.

The first symptoms of smallpox usually appear 10 to 14 days after you're infected. During the incubation period of seven to 17 days, you look and feel healthy and can't infect others.

Following the incubation period, a sudden onset of flu-like signs and symptoms occurs. These include:

Fever

Overall discomfort

Headache

Severe fatigue

Severe back pain

Vomiting, possibly

"advances in synthetic biology have made it possible to create smallpox from published amino acid sequences".

Just a side-show...

With several hundred million being inoculated, the problems may well rival the original disease..

Due to the list of exclusions from the trials, I have decided that the risk of a personal inoculation is far too high for me, at least with the Pfizer/Moderna vaccine. A personal choice.

Holliday42333  
#1030 Posted : 10 December 2020 15:51:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: John Murray Go to Quoted Post

COVID-19 is not a single disease, but a plethora of diseases and/or systemic failures. Which leads to the inevitable consideration that perhaps many of the deaths were not a result of infection with SARS-COV-2, leading to COVID-19, but that many may have died anyway, of their multiple co-morbidities, and just have been infected with the virus, which caused them no problems?

Your statement of course has its merits and will be entirely correct in many cases.

Perhaps because of my very personal experience with death from Covid-19, I really have trouble accepting, and always have, that the overwhelming  majority of deaths where caused by something other than the direct effects of SARS-COV-2 infection.

In my own experience; were there underlying health conditions?  Yes.  If it were not for the SARS-COV-2 infection, would those underlying health conditions caused death? In all likelihood, not last month they wouldn't, no.

Again my position/opinion is this; can the UK afford to impliment widespread infection suppression and restriction of movement (Aus/NZ style)? No

Can the UK afford not to? No with bells on

The resultant polemic means that thousands will die via a mechanism of 'herd culling' and the ecconomy will be dammaged for decades to come.  That ecconomic damage will allow greater control of the ecconomy & personal freedoms to the priveliged few who have a large enough EBITDA or credit raising ability.

Those that fight against the short-term (relatively speaking) acceptance of group rather personal priorities allow the pandemic to proliferate and create the exact type of society/government/big business control they claim to be rallying against.

Personally I want to buy my fish and chips from the local chippy, but while they continue to pay scant regard for collective controls because they believe it limits their business, I will go without and stop giving them business for the sake of the community.  I will end up in the future getting my traditional take-a-way supper delivered by a drone from Amazon or the like, whilst around me the pandemic continues and Big Pharma etc reaps the rewards of a new public need created by the very people who fought against it.

Sorry, a short counter argument turned into a socio-political rant.  I'll get off my soap box now.  As we were!

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Kate on 10/12/2020(UTC), chris.packham on 10/12/2020(UTC), CptBeaky on 14/12/2020(UTC)
John Murray  
#1031 Posted : 10 December 2020 16:09:16(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

I still buy my own chips.

There is no guarantee that you will not become infected due to virus on the packaging, or in the delivery person!

And I'll repeat: The state in going to inoculate many people who are not at risk from the virus, and who may well be at more risk from the vaccination. I also note that another excluded antibody in the test subjects was one to sars....

I'll wait for the more conventional vaccine, or not. Since the antibodies generated from the vaccine won't last long by all accounts, people may have to look forward to annual jabs, rather like flu.

Then we move on to people who already possess T cells that react to sars-cov-2 virus, which is around 6%+ of the UK population. Bet they'll have fun when injected with a vaccine which instructs their cells to display a protein that those T cells will attack.

Holliday42333  
#1032 Posted : 10 December 2020 16:17:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: John Murray Go to Quoted Post

I still buy my own chips.

There is no guarantee that you will not become infected due to virus on the packaging, or in the delivery person!

And I'll repeat: The state in going to inoculate many people who are not at risk from the virus, and who may well be at more risk from the vaccination. I also note that another excluded antibody in the test subjects was one to sars....

I'll wait for the more conventional vaccine, or not. Since the antibodies generated from the vaccine won't last long by all accounts, people may have to look forward to annual jabs, rather like flu.

Then we move on to people who already possess T cells that react to sars-cov-2 virus, which is around 6%+ of the UK population. Bet they'll have fun when injected with a vaccine which instructs their cells to display a protein that those T cells will attack.

Where we will absolutely agree, is that the vaccene is not the answer.  Sure it has the potential to massively reduce the imediate impact of the virus, but what of the costs? Long term health etc.

Wouldn't it be better to Wash hands, Cover Face & Make Space (personally and internationally) for a few months than to face years of vaccinations, ecconomic turmoil etc with all the resltant social issues?

chris.packham  
#1033 Posted : 10 December 2020 19:12:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

I would not agree with the statement 'wash hands' as it stands. Frequent hand washing damages the skin barrier and makes it easier for transient micro-organisms to colonise the skin with an increase risk of infection. If hands have to be washed then it is essential that they are properly rinsed to remove all cleanser and thus also micro-organisms from the skin using the same technique and timing as for the application of the skin cleanser, dried and then reconditioned by the application of a skin moisturising lotion (not cream). Note that the washing should be done in lukewarm - not hot water. Actually, the evidence is that the ethanol based alcohol cleanser is more effective and much kinder to the skin. A properly formulated alcohol cleanser will actually act also as a skin conditioner. Quicker, more convenient and the choice for hand decontamination according to the NICE accredited protocol for NHS England establishments, something that the Government experts have apparently overlooked!

chris.packham  
#1034 Posted : 11 December 2020 13:43:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

I read the information about testing for return to work in the on-line IOSH magazine with some concern. It could create the impression that testing is the answer to ensuring a safe working environment with regard to Covid-19. Yes, testing is helpful, but it is only one of the essential tools that are needed. Relying on testing alone will not result in the optimum level of safety.

Testing only indicates the presence of the virus in the body at the time of the test. Unless one tests every person at the start of every day, how will it identify someone who tested negative yesterday but today is positive? Note, ‘in the body’. That person may test negative but be colonised, i.e., carrying the virus on the body. Even if they then maintain social distancing, they may transfer the virus to surfaces to which others will have contact and thus spread the virus within the workforce. Evidence is now substantial and growing that indirect transmission is a significant route of spread and possibly even more significant than direct inhalation. So social distancing, surface disinfection and hand hygiene must feature as essential elements in any infection prevention strategy. Unfortunately, with these there is much misinformation about which are the effective strategies. So perhaps a careful and objective assessment of what comprises the correct make-up of the strategy for each individual workplace is what is called for.

achrn  
#1035 Posted : 11 December 2020 16:35:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

I observe that the government workplace guidance at https://www.gov.uk/guida...ing-coronavirus-covid-19 no longer has pdf versions of the guidance - now you can only read the guidance by navigating their infuriating click-here-to-expand-the-next-paragraph-of-text system.

What's more, they have again sneaked in a whole new raft of guidance, with standing "will usually need to take the steps below", without acknowledging it in the revision history.

In the offices document (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/offices-and-contact-centres) the 9 December update is described as including "Updated guidance to clarify that workplace canteens open to staff only do not need to collect data for NHS Test and Trace", but what has actually been done is to introduce a whole new section about operating requirements in staff canteens, including (inter alia) use of dishwashers rated for disinfection, cleaning regime after each group of staff pass through, "A system to reduce the use of cash for food or to facilitate the exclusive use of debit cards and contactless payment" needs to be considered, too.

None of this was in the document last time I looked. None of it is acknowledged in the (shoddily scanty) record of changes.

And since they've taken away the pdf download option, so you can't even put revisions of the docs side-by-side on screen and compare them.

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Kate on 16/12/2020(UTC)
achrn  
#1036 Posted : 11 December 2020 16:45:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Actually, it's worse than that, and there's other stuff too that may be even more significant.

In November, section 1 of the document started "COVID-19 is a public health emergency."

Now, apparently, "As an employer, you have a legal responsibility to protect workers and others from risk to their health and safety, including from the risks of COVID-19.

"COVID-19 is a hazard in the workplace and, as such, should be managed in the same way as other workplace hazards. "

That's a pretty fundamental shift - apparently the government now believes that employers have a duty to protect employees (and everyone else) from risks whether they arise from the work activity or not...

Edited by user 11 December 2020 16:46:17(UTC)  | Reason: spilling

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CptBeaky on 14/12/2020(UTC), Kate on 16/12/2020(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#1037 Posted : 14 December 2020 09:58:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Originally Posted by: John Murray Go to Quoted Post

But if he had contracted CV19, he would almost certainly have had pneumonia as a consequence.

I'll repeat this; The virus has killed nobody, it was the cause, of the cause, of death. Deaths are from other causes (excess mucous leading to pneumonia, then becoming systemic, then sepsis and then death etc).

A country with a history of personal freedom, and inherent distrust of govt, and a population of over 300 million, was always going to be hit hard in a pandemic!

Whilst this may be true, it gets misinterpreted into people believing that COVID-19 doesn't result in people dying. If that were true, we would not have the high levels of excess deaths this year. And remember that this is excess despite the various lockdown rules that have been in place over the course of the year. These lockdowns will have reduced incidences of other diseases, such as flu.

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

This is a great site where you can play around with the various graphs to find the exact data you are looking for in regards to excess deaths. Those who feel the virus isn't causing people to die need to find an alternative explanation for the rise in deaths, that works for all the countries suffering.

As a side not, it is these sorts of graphs that debunk the "5g" conspiracy. Many countries don't yet have 5g, and yet are still suffering. France being the most obvious. China - Wuhan province being another glaring omission - their "5g" is just repurposed 4g.

Whilst it is your choice not to get the vaccine, I feel that the narrative of the vaccine being worse than the disease is a dangerous one. Whilst it is hard to disagree that on a personal level the vaccine may be worse than the virus for young, healthy people (although I doubt the death rate for the vaccine will even be in the same magnitude as the virus) it is not all about protecting oneself. Fire bullets randomly around oneself isn't dangerous to the person firing the gun, doesn't make it a socially responsible thing to do.

We have seen the damage Trump has done to the democratic process by controlling the narrative, the damage that can be done by underming trust in the vaccines could be disasterous.

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Brian Hagyard on 14/12/2020(UTC), flysafe on 14/12/2020(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#1038 Posted : 14 December 2020 10:25:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Great post Cpt.

Your right Covid 19 may not directly kill anybody - but it can be the straw that broke the camels back for many, and yes the death rate is way over the 5 year average even with the measures we have had in place so i will continue to do my bit to try and keep numbers of infections low.

The vaccine (like all drugs) will not be perfect and could be deadily for very few if offered it i will gladly accept - but i think im a long way down the list.

The only thing i am not clear about - due to conflicting media reports" is if the vacine stops you contracting Covid - or just stops you developing the dangerouse sysmptoms. If its the latter then once restrictions are lifted sadly we will see more deaths in people who did not realise they had underlying conditions, Still a long way until we are out of the woods.

A Kurdziel  
#1039 Posted : 14 December 2020 10:37:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

A vaccine stimulates your bodies immune response and stops you getting the disease, totally. The questions to which we don’t have answers to yet are: is this immune response long lasting or does it weaken over time and will the virus mutate in such a way that the vaccine will stop being effective?

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Brian Hagyard on 14/12/2020(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#1040 Posted : 14 December 2020 11:01:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

thanks A - that was my understanding of a vaccine - but unfortuantly as we know there are multiple "experts" all claiming different things and i had read one report that suggested this may not be the way with Covid.

biker1  
#1041 Posted : 14 December 2020 12:25:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

The anti-lockdown etc lobby seem intent on spreading misinformation to justify their case. Claims that no-one has died of COVID show a basic misunderstanding of the way viruses work, as Cpt points out. I have seen various figures for excess deaths, some compared to flu, where one figure was three times the death rate of flu. However, another figure put flu deaths at 2000 per year, and on this reckoning COVID has been responsible for nearly 30 times the number of deaths of flu. Choose your own figures, but the conclusions won't alter much.

I was reading about research that identified genetic profiles that determined how badly you would be affected by COVID, sounded interesting, and certainly one of the mysteries so far has been why some people are badly affected whilst others aren't, and this doesn't seem to be entirely down to age or underlying conditions. At one point, blood group was touted as an explanation, but this doesn't seem to have gone anywhere.

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