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The Iron Chicken  
#1281 Posted : 02 February 2021 06:46:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

Image

thanks 1 user thanked The Iron Chicken for this useful post.
jonc on 18/02/2021(UTC)
Holliday42333  
#1282 Posted : 02 February 2021 07:54:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: The Iron Chicken Go to Quoted Post

Pointless graph copied from conspiracy website

..............and your point is?

So Chicken, having joined in 2009, your only posts have been regarding denial of the Covid-19 pandemic and response in some shape or form. Not a single post that I can find on Occupational Health & Safety.

You have constantly presented 'conclusions' that have either come from known consipracy information or misquoted from genuine research/data.

When robustly challenged over undefendable comments you dissapear for a few days, then start up as if the previous challenge never occured.

Yet, I can find no posting of yours where you actually suggest a solution or provide guidance.

You are providing no help whatsoever to anybody else on the forum, nor seeking guidance for yourself.  In fact you are doing nothing but spread missinformation and increading the negative mental burden of this catastrophic pandemic.

What is your motivation, because I for one can only see a desire to maliciously spread misery and discontent.

thanks 2 users thanked Holliday42333 for this useful post.
flysafe on 02/02/2021(UTC), CptBeaky on 10/02/2021(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#1283 Posted : 02 February 2021 08:47:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Yet again you look at a graph and fail to see that it disproves your point. You have previously argued that increased testing finds more cases, that is why cases are rising and now you move the goal posts and argue that it doesn't work that way.

You also seem to gloss over the massive spike in excess deaths also shown in that graph. You still haven't given an explanation of what is causing those deaths. I have stated several times that science is reliant on its predictive ability. Scientists said, back in February of last year, that we were about to have a global pandemic that would result in the loss of more lives than is usual. This has happened, therefore it gives great weight of evidence to the pandemic. Science says that lockdowns are emergency measures to use when the virus gets out of control. when we see spikes in death rates we locked down, rates fell. You graph shows that. Again this is predicted, it happens, therefore it is yet more evidence that the pandemic is real.

"Truthers" said this isn't true, and it is all a scam. However, many more people have died have died than is normal. The highest rate of increase of excess deaths since the second world war. We also know it isn't influenza, since cases of that have fallen by 95%. So if you are claiming every coroner in the world, the vast majority of the medical profession and the vast majority of disease experts are all wrong, but you are right, you need to have a reason for this that is testable and has preddictive powers.

You don't, so shuffle on please.

thanks 1 user thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
flysafe on 02/02/2021(UTC)
John Murray  
#1284 Posted : 02 February 2021 08:58:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

More to spread distrust. Most social media, and, increasingly, medical sites, are under attack from conspiracy-theorist trolls. The USA has several well-established ‘troll-factories’ whose sole function is to sow discontent in society. Plus, there is money to be made as well. Several pootube sites make a very good living by being professional liars. The Truth is Out There! Somewhere! If you want medical advice: Ask your doctor. Never pay any attention to trolls.
The Iron Chicken  
#1285 Posted : 02 February 2021 11:19:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

Yet again you look at a graph and fail to see that it disproves your point. You have previously argued that increased testing finds more cases, that is why cases are rising and now you move the goal posts and argue that it doesn't work that way.

You are quoting posts I made some time ago when the situation was different to what it is now.

You also seem to gloss over the massive spike in excess deaths also shown in that graph. You still haven't given an explanation of what is causing those deaths. I have stated several times that science is reliant on its predictive ability. Scientists said, back in February of last year, that we were about to have a global pandemic that would result in the loss of more lives than is usual. This has happened, therefore it gives great weight of evidence to the pandemic. Science says that lockdowns are emergency measures to use when the virus gets out of control. when we see spikes in death rates we locked down, rates fell. You graph shows that. Again this is predicted, it happens, therefore it is yet more evidence that the pandemic is real.

Real science should also use actual evidence.

Science has never advocated quarantining a whole population before 2020 - and indeed even the WHO still states this should not be done.

If you look carefully, you will see that cases and deaths start to fall before ‘Lockdowns’ are implemented.

"Truthers" said this isn't true, and it is all a scam. However, many more people have died have died than is normal. The highest rate of increase of excess deaths since the second world war. We also know it isn't influenza, since cases of that have fallen by 95%. So if you are claiming every coroner in the world, the vast majority of the medical profession and the vast majority of disease experts are all wrong, but you are right, you need to have a reason for this that is testable and has preddictive powers.

There are a huge number of highly qualified, highly experienced independent scientists and doctors who hold a different view to SAGE, etc., but they are being censored and silenced. That alone should tell you something.

You don't, so shuffle on please.

I have common sense, an open mind and the ability to think critically.

thanks 1 user thanked The Iron Chicken for this useful post.
jonc on 18/02/2021(UTC)
The Iron Chicken  
#1286 Posted : 02 February 2021 11:23:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

Originally Posted by: Holliday42333 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: The Iron Chicken Go to Quoted Post

Pointless graph copied from conspiracy website

What ‘conspiracy website’ are you referring to? If you’d bothered to look properly, it quite clearly states at the bottom of the graph that the figures used are from gov.uk and nhs.uk official sources.

..............and your point is?

So Chicken, having joined in 2009, your only posts have been regarding denial of the Covid-19 pandemic and response in some shape or form. Not a single post that I can find on Occupational Health & Safety.

And YOUR point is?

You have constantly presented 'conclusions' that have either come from known consipracy information or misquoted from genuine research/data.

I present information using data from official sources and opinions that may be of interest to others.

When robustly challenged over undefendable comments you dissapear for a few days, then start up as if the previous challenge never occured.

TBH, I can only take so much of the toxicity you and some other members spread here and sometimes need a break from it.

Yet, I can find no posting of yours where you actually suggest a solution or provide guidance.

SOLUTION: end all restrictions NOW and protect the elderly vulnerable in the same way we would in ‘flu season – the same as we have always done.

You are providing no help whatsoever to anybody else on the forum, nor seeking guidance for yourself.  In fact you are doing nothing but spread missinformation and increading the negative mental burden of this catastrophic pandemic.

So, you speak for everyone else do you?

What is your motivation, because I for one can only see a desire to maliciously spread misery and discontent.

To encourage people to question government policy, as much of it does not make sense when you apply some critical thinking and an open mind.

CptBeaky  
#1287 Posted : 02 February 2021 11:54:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Originally Posted by: The Iron Chicken Go to Quoted Post

You are quoting posts I made some time ago when the situation was different to what it is now.

If you look carefully, you will see that cases and deaths start to fall before ‘Lockdowns’ are implemented.

So you admit to moving the goal posts?

And I have looked carefully at the graphs. I will give you some figures...

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

First UK lockdown announced on 23rd March 2020

Daily cases (7 day average) 661 - Peaked at 4999 on April 14th before dropping

Daily death rate (7 day average)  38 - Peaked at 943 on April 14th before dropping

Second UK lockdown announced on 31st October

Daily cases 22522 - Peaked at 25331 on November 16th before dropping

Daily Death rate 259 - Peaked at 486 on November 29th before (briefly) dropping

Tier 4 lockdowns announced for 19th December, moving to national lockdown on 5th January

Daily case rate 24752 on Dec 19th and 55945 January 5th - Peaked at 59653 on January 10th 2021

Daily death rate 436 on Dec 19th and 676 on January 5th - Peaked at 1248 on January 23rd  

Is that clear enough? I obviously know that you will now argue that you didn't mean "before"..... And you still refuse to tell us what it is that is killing people. Something is and if it is not COVID, influenza of pneumonia, then what is it? Stop dodging the question.

Brian Hagyard  
#1288 Posted : 02 February 2021 11:55:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Originally Posted by: The Iron Chicken Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Holliday42333 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: The Iron Chicken Go to Quoted Post

When robustly challenged over undefendable comments you dissapear for a few days, then start up as if the previous challenge never occured.

TBH, I can only take so much of the toxicity you and some other members spread here and sometimes need a break from it.

So disappear back of to what ever stone you dragged yourself out from under we wont miss you!

Yet, I can find no posting of yours where you actually suggest a solution or provide guidance.

SOLUTION: end all restrictions NOW and protect the elderly vulnerable in the same way we would in ‘flu season – the same as we have always done.

What a great idea you mean like giving them a vaccine! O hang on a secong i note a slight problem with that for the last 12 months.

What is your motivation, because I for one can only see a desire to maliciously spread misery and discontent.

To encourage people to question government policy, as much of it does not make sense when you apply some critical thinking and an open mind.

So the fact that the majority of us dont agree with you makes us wronge and you right? Funny i have read about a few people in history that had that view.

thanks 1 user thanked Brian Hagyard for this useful post.
flysafe on 02/02/2021(UTC)
Holliday42333  
#1289 Posted : 02 February 2021 11:57:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: The Iron Chicken Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Holliday42333 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: The Iron Chicken Go to Quoted Post

Pointless graph copied from conspiracy website

What ‘conspiracy website’ are you referring to? If you’d bothered to look properly, it quite clearly states at the bottom of the graph that the figures used are from gov.uk and nhs.uk official sources.

If you had bothered to look properly, it quite clearly states at the bottom of the graph that the graph itself has been created by InProportion2.talkigy.com.

..............and your point is?

So Chicken, having joined in 2009, your only posts have been regarding denial of the Covid-19 pandemic and response in some shape or form. Not a single post that I can find on Occupational Health & Safety.

And YOUR point is?

That you are a Covid troll with no interest in Occupational Health & Safety and not much more interest in helping people through this pandemic

You have constantly presented 'conclusions' that have either come from known consipracy information or misquoted from genuine research/data.

I present information using data from official sources and opinions that may be of interest to others.

Who are these others?  All I can see is long standing and respected members of these forums either hiding your posts or challenging your narrow and misleading view of the pandemic  Many of your official sources are anyting but and even the author of one of your opinions has stated that you have misrepresented it.

When robustly challenged over undefendable comments you dissapear for a few days, then start up as if the previous challenge never occured.

TBH, I can only take so much of the toxicity you and some other members spread here and sometimes need a break from it.

If you are so fed up with the toxicity perhaps you should look after yourelf remove these toxic forums from your life.

Yet, I can find no posting of yours where you actually suggest a solution or provide guidance.

SOLUTION: end all restrictions NOW and protect the elderly and vulnerable in the same way we would in ‘flu season – the same as we have always done.

The elderly and vulnerable quite obviously cannot be protected as they are in flu season as the vaccine has not been rolled out to the same level and the transmission and fatality of covid is far greater.  Neither can they be effectively isolated unless you lock them and caregivers and doctors in fully self supporting medical facilities.  I have experienced the issue with this approach directly in my own familiy and no longer have a mum as a direct result (tragically I am far from alone in this regard).

You are providing no help whatsoever to anybody else on the forum, nor seeking guidance for yourself.  In fact you are doing nothing but spread missinformation and increading the negative mental burden of this catastrophic pandemic.

So, you speak for everyone else do you?

As you said yourself only a few lines earlier this forum is full of people who, in your opinion, direct toxicity towards yourself and your opinions.

What is your motivation, because I for one can only see a desire to maliciously spread misery and discontent.

To encourage people to question government policy, as much of it does not make sense when you apply some critical thinking and an open mind.

To me Government policy, in hindsight, does not make sense at all when I apply critical thinking and an open mind.  Trying to appease big business and protect the ecconomy over public health has achieved neither.  It is quite clear, to me, that the AUS/NZ model was the only viable way of protecting the ecconomy and public health but by the time the politicians (not the scientists) from the majority of industrialised nations faced up to this it was all to late and community transmisson was to large to control with that method.

Your version of critical thinking and open mind does not appear to be agreed with or even wanted by the majority of forum users, as your many disagrements clearly show if you apply some critical thinking.

thanks 1 user thanked Holliday42333 for this useful post.
flysafe on 02/02/2021(UTC)
The Iron Chicken  
#1290 Posted : 02 February 2021 13:19:44(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

Originally Posted by: Holliday42333 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: The Iron Chicken Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Holliday42333 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: The Iron Chicken Go to Quoted Post

Pointless graph copied from conspiracy website

What ‘conspiracy website’ are you referring to? If you’d bothered to look properly, it quite clearly states at the bottom of the graph that the figures used are from gov.uk and nhs.uk official sources.

If you had bothered to look properly, it quite clearly states at the bottom of the graph that the graph itself has been created by InProportion2.talkigy.com.

..............and your point is?

So Chicken, having joined in 2009, your only posts have been regarding denial of the Covid-19 pandemic and response in some shape or form. Not a single post that I can find on Occupational Health & Safety.

And YOUR point is?

That you are a Covid troll with no interest in Occupational Health & Safety and not much more interest in helping people through this pandemic

You have constantly presented 'conclusions' that have either come from known consipracy information or misquoted from genuine research/data.

I present information using data from official sources and opinions that may be of interest to others.

Who are these others?  All I can see is long standing and respected members of these forums either hiding your posts or challenging your narrow and misleading view of the pandemic  Many of your official sources are anyting but and even the author of one of your opinions has stated that you have misrepresented it.

When robustly challenged over undefendable comments you dissapear for a few days, then start up as if the previous challenge never occured.

TBH, I can only take so much of the toxicity you and some other members spread here and sometimes need a break from it.

If you are so fed up with the toxicity perhaps you should look after yourelf remove these toxic forums from your life.

Yet, I can find no posting of yours where you actually suggest a solution or provide guidance.

SOLUTION: end all restrictions NOW and protect the elderly and vulnerable in the same way we would in ‘flu season – the same as we have always done.

The elderly and vulnerable quite obviously cannot be protected as they are in flu season as the vaccine has not been rolled out to the same level and the transmission and fatality of covid is far greater.  Neither can they be effectively isolated unless you lock them and caregivers and doctors in fully self supporting medical facilities.  I have experienced the issue with this approach directly in my own familiy and no longer have a mum as a direct result (tragically I am far from alone in this regard).

You are providing no help whatsoever to anybody else on the forum, nor seeking guidance for yourself.  In fact you are doing nothing but spread missinformation and increading the negative mental burden of this catastrophic pandemic.

So, you speak for everyone else do you?

As you said yourself only a few lines earlier this forum is full of people who, in your opinion, direct toxicity towards yourself and your opinions.

What is your motivation, because I for one can only see a desire to maliciously spread misery and discontent.

To encourage people to question government policy, as much of it does not make sense when you apply some critical thinking and an open mind.

To me Government policy, in hindsight, does not make sense at all when I apply critical thinking and an open mind.  Trying to appease big business and protect the ecconomy over public health has achieved neither.  It is quite clear, to me, that the AUS/NZ model was the only viable way of protecting the ecconomy and public health but by the time the politicians (not the scientists) from the majority of industrialised nations faced up to this it was all to late and community transmisson was to large to control with that method.

Your version of critical thinking and open mind does not appear to be agreed with or even wanted by the majority of forum users, as your many disagrements clearly show if you apply some critical thinking.

If you don't like what I write, don't read it. You do not speak for everyone.

Holliday42333  
#1291 Posted : 02 February 2021 13:54:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: The Iron Chicken Go to Quoted Post

If you don't like what I write, don't read it. You do not speak for everyone.

Can you show me the data you are basing this conclusion on?

thanks 2 users thanked Holliday42333 for this useful post.
flysafe on 02/02/2021(UTC), John Murray on 02/02/2021(UTC)
peter gotch  
#1292 Posted : 02 February 2021 16:03:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Using the same source as Iron Chicken in their contribution in the last post on page 32 of this thread...

Covid-19 Dashboard (talkigy.com)

It's perhaps the top two lines (other than the number of tests) that are most relevant.

With virtually no exception, these show excess mortality being substantially above the 5 year average for most of the last 12 months.

This will be due to multiple variables including those who have died after contracting Covid, those who have died from other reasons as healthcare services are stretched (or because people are reluctant to use them) and some who may have died from causes including e.g. suicide as a result of Covid restrictions.

But it is very difficult to conclude that simply doing away with restrictions would solve the excess mortality.

thanks 11 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 02/02/2021(UTC), flysafe on 02/02/2021(UTC), Alan Haynes on 02/02/2021(UTC), Holliday42333 on 02/02/2021(UTC), John Murray on 02/02/2021(UTC), aud on 02/02/2021(UTC), Wailes900134 on 02/02/2021(UTC), Brian Hagyard on 03/02/2021(UTC), chris42 on 03/02/2021(UTC), MikeKelly on 03/02/2021(UTC), nic168 on 08/02/2021(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#1293 Posted : 03 February 2021 08:52:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post

Using the same source as Iron Chicken in their contribution in the last post on page 32 of this thread...

Covid-19 Dashboard (talkigy.com)

It's perhaps the top two lines (other than the number of tests) that are most relevant.

With virtually no exception, these show excess mortality being substantially above the 5 year average for most of the last 12 months.

This will be due to multiple variables including those who have died after contracting Covid, those who have died from other reasons as healthcare services are stretched (or because people are reluctant to use them) and some who may have died from causes including e.g. suicide as a result of Covid restrictions.

But it is very difficult to conclude that simply doing away with restrictions would solve the excess mortality.

i would argue that doing away with restrictions would make the situation much worse for all the reasons you give Peter - not least of which the NHS would probably collapse.

I dont think any of us here are denying that the cost of Covid is much more than just the deaths from Covid - but unlike a small minority we are trying to help with all these issues not just condemining thousands (partricually the elderly) to death!

thanks 1 user thanked Brian Hagyard for this useful post.
peter gotch on 03/02/2021(UTC)
Holliday42333  
#1294 Posted : 03 February 2021 12:12:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Oh dear, it appears that Grant Shapps is getting his information from the kind of websites frequented by Covid deniers.

He has told the Transport Select Committee this morning that the UK could not control its boarders in the same way as Australia etc as the UK needs to get goods and services in.

Obviously the Right Honerable gentleman is under the assumption that Australia is self sufficient and has stopped international freight, which is complete nonsense.  Not a single member of the committee challenged this  statement!

I know politicians lie to protect their position but even so [eyeroll]

Its clear that due to the differences of point of entry and more embeded free movement of goods that the application of such control would be more problemetic and less successful. To say that the problem is different as Australia does not have to import goods/services is just nonsense.

[Update] The PM is now spouting the same rhetoric in PMQ's

Edited by user 03 February 2021 12:40:53(UTC)  | Reason: Spelling etc in the absence of a spellchecker

thanks 1 user thanked Holliday42333 for this useful post.
peter gotch on 03/02/2021(UTC)
MikeKelly  
#1295 Posted : 03 February 2021 13:15:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MikeKelly

Hi Chaps/chapesses!

Can we just ignore the trolls and keep the objective discussions amongst ourselves, it will save time and effort which can be used constructively rather than countering idiocy.

Regards

Mike 

thanks 6 users thanked MikeKelly for this useful post.
RVThompson on 03/02/2021(UTC), Kate on 03/02/2021(UTC), achrn on 03/02/2021(UTC), John Murray on 04/02/2021(UTC), knotty on 08/02/2021(UTC), nic168 on 17/02/2021(UTC)
The Iron Chicken  
#1296 Posted : 04 February 2021 06:53:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

CNN article 3 Feb 2021: WHO team heads to China bat lab at the center of coronavirus conspiracies

Note the involvement of Peter Daszak.

Peter Daszak is a member of the WHO team currently in Wuhan.

Quote from the article: “Daszak said he hoped his personal relationships with the lab leadership will mean they get everything they need.”

Daszak is also an intermediary for Gain of Function research grants from NIAID (Fauci) to Wuhan.

Why is Daszak on the WHO investigative team when there is an obvious conflict of interest?

thanks 1 user thanked The Iron Chicken for this useful post.
jonc on 18/02/2021(UTC)
The Iron Chicken  
#1297 Posted : 05 February 2021 07:00:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

NHS England latest figures:

74,249 patients have "died in hospitals in England and have tested positive for Covid-19."

95.8% had a pre-existing condition.

4.2% of patients in English hospitals who died "having tested positive for Covid-19" had no known pre-existing condition.

Yet millions of healthy people have been prohibited, by law, from having contact with other healthy people apparently to "control a virus."

How is this proportionate?

thanks 1 user thanked The Iron Chicken for this useful post.
jonc on 18/02/2021(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#1298 Posted : 05 February 2021 08:43:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Around 26m people in the UK have a pre-existing condition, over 1/3 of the population. Whilst most pre-existing conditions do not contribute to COVID-19 complications, they will still have it mentioned on the death certificate.

Pre-existing condition does not mean "Going to die soon". Nor does it mean "Should be allowed to die for the greater good". Whilst I am sure some people would love to join in a "Lock Them Up" chant, I don't see when people with pre-existing health conditions started to be seen with such contempt. Someone who has lived with HIV for 30 years shouldn't be sacrificed so that someone else can go to the pub.

thanks 1 user thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
nic168 on 08/02/2021(UTC)
chris.packham  
#1299 Posted : 05 February 2021 08:58:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

I think it isn't that a certain person regards those with pre-existing health conditions with contempt but more probably that they cannot understand certain simple facts about the need to protect the population as a whole. Yet when the restrictions were lifted, some might argue with reason to prematurely) last year what happened. The number of cases rose to almost swamp the NHS, the number of deaths increased significantly and the Government decided that there was a need to prevent the spread of the virus. Of course, what they probably don't appreciate also is that those with no pre-existing health conditions can carry the virus and pass it on to others who are less able to prevent themselves becoming infected and seriously ill or possibly die. What value can one place on the opinions of those who cannot understand such simple matters?

The Iron Chicken  
#1300 Posted : 05 February 2021 09:06:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

CLEANING:

Increased exposure to chemicals = deterioration of health = increased need for medication = PROFITS FOR BIG PHARMA

Decreased exposure to natural pathogens = reduced natural immunity = deterioration of health = increased need for medication = PROFITS FOR BIG PHARMA

LOCKDOWN / RESTRICTIONS:

Closure of gyms and wellbeing services = deterioration of mental and physical health = increased need for medication = PROFITS FOR BIG PHARMA

Closure of small shops = increased use of big business = PROFITS FOR BIG BUSINESS

Loneliness and isolation = deterioration of mental health = increased demand for opiates = opiate addiction = PROFITS FOR BIG PHARMA

PROJECT FEAR / PROPAGANDA CAMPAIGN:

Fear and anxiety = deterioration of mental health = increased demand for opiates = opiate addiction = PROFITS FOR BIG PHARMA

Fear and anxiety = reduced immunity = deterioration of health = increased need for medication = PROFITS FOR BIG PHARMA

Fear and anxiety = increased uptake of vaccination = PROFITS FOR BIG PHARMA

FUTURE:

Lockdowns / restrictions = destruction of existing economic system = easier to implement ‘Build Back Better’ = PROFITS FOR VESTED INTERESTS

Seasonal vaccination for coronaviruses and possibly other = PROFITS FOR BIG PHARMA

Plant-based diet / restriction of meat and dairy consumption = poor health for many (veganism is not appropriate for everyone) = increased need for medication = PROFITS FOR BIG PHARMA

Automation of jobs = less people working = deterioration of mental and physical health = increased need for medication = PROFITS FOR BIG PHARMA

Mass and personal surveillance = increased control over the population = manipulation of thoughts, words and actions (see Chinese Social Credit System already in operation) = TECHNOCRATIC CONTROL

Smart Cities = population concentrated in defined areas so easy to surveil and control = TECHNOCRATIC CONTROL

Phase-out of private ownership = items and services are leased on a subscription basis = whoever provides it can also remove it = TECHNOCRATIC CONTROL

Welcome to the ‘new normal’ of technocratic authoritarian control, medical tyranny and eco-fascism.

Is that REALLY the future you want?

thanks 1 user thanked The Iron Chicken for this useful post.
jonc on 18/02/2021(UTC)
Holliday42333  
#1301 Posted : 05 February 2021 09:09:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

Around 26m people in the UK have a pre-existing condition, over 1/3 of the population. Whilst most pre-existing conditions do not contribute to COVID-19 complications, they will still have it mentioned on the death certificate.

Pre-existing condition does not mean "Going to die soon". Nor does it mean "Should be allowed to die for the greater good". Whilst I am sure some people would love to join in a "Lock Them Up" chant, I don't see when people with pre-existing health conditions started to be seen with such contempt. Someone who has lived with HIV for 30 years shouldn't be sacrificed so that someone else can go to the pub.

Quite correct CptBeaky.  My late mum had 5 pre-existing conditions named on the death certificate so would be counted in the NHS data.

Mum had four of them for at leat 5 years, were under control, were not immediately life threatening and did not directly contribute to her death.  The other one was a UTI that, whilst relatively minor and eminently treatable, was still a condition at time of death so was appropriately recorded by the presiding doctor.

Whilst, sadly, some of the peoply who have died during the pandemic had such pre-existing conditions that a verucca may have pushed them over the edge, that is not the normal reality behind the NHS data and any suggestion otherwise is a gross and obscene manipulation of the facts.

Edited by user 05 February 2021 09:14:08(UTC)  | Reason: Spelling etc in the absence of a spellchecker

thanks 1 user thanked Holliday42333 for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 05/02/2021(UTC)
The Iron Chicken  
#1302 Posted : 05 February 2021 09:23:25(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

Around 26m people in the UK have a pre-existing condition, over 1/3 of the population. Whilst most pre-existing conditions do not contribute to COVID-19 complications, they will still have it mentioned on the death certificate.

Pre-existing condition does not mean "Going to die soon". Nor does it mean "Should be allowed to die for the greater good". Whilst I am sure some people would love to join in a "Lock Them Up" chant, I don't see when people with pre-existing health conditions started to be seen with such contempt. Someone who has lived with HIV for 30 years shouldn't be sacrificed so that someone else can go to the pub.

I don't think anyone could argue that 'Covid19' death numbers have been, and continue to be, inflated due to use of the criteria 'deaths of any cause within XX days of a positive test.'

So, to turn your first point around: a positive Covid test does not contribute to death from a pre-existing condition, but it will still be mentioned on the death certificate.

To turn your second point on its head: lockdown fanatics are chanting 'Lock Them Up' for healthy people - and also those people who are not 100% healthy, or are elderly, who do not want their lives restricted.

Each person should be allowed to make their own assessment of risk and protect themselves/others accordingly.

As the majority of us did up to March 2020 - got a cold/flu, sickness and diarrhoea, other infectious illnesses? Stay away from the vulnerable!

Not contempt, just common sense...

Alan Haynes  
#1303 Posted : 05 February 2021 09:32:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alan Haynes

I never thought I would see the words " common sense" and "Iron Chicken" on the same post.
Holliday42333  
#1304 Posted : 05 February 2021 09:40:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: Alan Haynes Go to Quoted Post
I never thought I would see the words " common sense" and "Iron Chicken" on the same post.

Probably misinterpreted or misrepresented

CptBeaky  
#1305 Posted : 05 February 2021 09:42:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

And who looks after the vulnerable people? Do these people have to also lock themselves up whilst everyone else parties? And how do we get goods to these carers and the vulnerable people without putting them at risk? Do we lock down the shops and the delivery drivers? And how do we maintain the vehicles and the supply chains to the shops? Do we also lock these people down to prevent transmission. And then what are we left with? Basically all the people keeping the country running have to go to work and go home whilst everyone else can do what they like?

There is no way we can protect the vulnerable from a disease that spreads this easily whilst still trying to continue as normal. And this is without even taking into consideration the knock on effect to the NHS (although you would probably be happier if these people were just allowed to die at home so that the fit people can still remain healthy).

You still continue to hint at the coroners etc. lying on death certificates, despite you having no expertise in that area, and yet you still refuse to provide us with your views on what these excess people are dying of. I see you still haven't acknowledged that your previous statement about numbers falling before lockdowns started was a bare-faced lie, I wonder why that is?

thanks 1 user thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
Holliday42333 on 05/02/2021(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#1306 Posted : 05 February 2021 09:50:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Originally Posted by: The Iron Chicken Go to Quoted Post

I don't think anyone could argue that 'Covid19' death numbers have been, and continue to be, inflated due to use of the criteria 'deaths of any cause within XX days of a positive test.'

I do argue that, and in previous posts (#1251 & #1252) I linked to evidence that you are wrong. We know how many people died of COVID-19 and it is actually MORE than those that dies with 28 days of a positive test, not less. Yet another post you don't acknowledge, because you have no answer to it. You just continue with your false narative, despite being shown that it is wrong. This shows that you are not interested in the truth, you are only interested in your own confirmation bias

thanks 2 users thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
Holliday42333 on 05/02/2021(UTC), flysafe on 05/02/2021(UTC)
John Murray  
#1307 Posted : 05 February 2021 10:02:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

Facts don’t matter Cpt. Truth is irrelevant. That the narrative is believable to the minimally-educated is all [that matters]. The Trump victory. Brexit. Etc. All won on the “ignore truth, believe me-I’m right” platform. Lies are the new truths.
thanks 2 users thanked John Murray for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 05/02/2021(UTC), Holliday42333 on 05/02/2021(UTC)
Holliday42333  
#1308 Posted : 05 February 2021 10:45:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: John Murray Go to Quoted Post
Facts don’t matter Cpt. Truth is irrelevant. That the narrative is believable to the minimally-educated is all [that matters]. The Trump victory. Brexit. Etc. All won on the “ignore truth, believe me-I’m right” platform. Lies are the new truths.

Careful John Murray; the conspiracy theorists and Covid deniers are adamant it is they that are conveying the facts and the authorities that are providing a believable narrative to minimally educated people (like the majority of these Forums and elsewhere) who are taking it all in and allowing "them" to control us.

To be fair, I do think there is some truth in big business (be it Pharma, Tech, Media, Consumables etc) profiting and taking more and more control of the developed world and worryingly so.  However, where I differ from the conspiracy theorists is that it is the Covid conspiracy theorists themselves who are driving this with reference to the pandemic.  By refusing the controls, or encouraging, people to refuse the controls, they are helping to drive infection numbers that drive societal controls that Big Business can then use to its advantage.

If the enough people followed the (inconvenient but easy for most) principles of 'Hands, Face, Space' to its maximum achievable conclusion, infection rates would likely not be high enough for Big Business to take advantage of.  Again I refer to the Aus/NZ style model.

thanks 2 users thanked Holliday42333 for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 05/02/2021(UTC), nic168 on 08/02/2021(UTC)
peter gotch  
#1309 Posted : 05 February 2021 17:31:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Pleased to be able to report that I got my first Covid jab today.

Wasn't particularly bothered that they did not inform me of which of the approved vaccines it was until it had been done, when I got a leaflet.

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CptBeaky on 08/02/2021(UTC)
Alan Haynes  
#1310 Posted : 05 February 2021 17:55:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alan Haynes

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post
Pleased to be able to report that I got my first Covid jab today.Wasn't particularly bothered that they did not inform me of which of the approved vaccines it was until it had been done, when I got a leaflet.
DITTO
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CptBeaky on 08/02/2021(UTC)
John Murray  
#1311 Posted : 05 February 2021 18:00:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post

Pleased to be able to report that I got my first Covid jab today.

Wasn't particularly bothered that they did not inform me of which of the approved vaccines it was until it had been done, when I got a leaflet.

Had mine on Monday. Astra/Oxford. They told me what it was prior to vaccination.

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CptBeaky on 08/02/2021(UTC)
The Iron Chicken  
#1312 Posted : 06 February 2021 13:24:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

And who looks after the vulnerable people? Do these people have to also lock themselves up whilst everyone else parties?

Do you think that people want normality to return so they can ‘PARTY’? You are so out of touch with reality that your statement is quite frankly insulting.

And how do we get goods to these carers and the vulnerable people without putting them at risk? Do we lock down the shops and the delivery drivers? And how do we maintain the vehicles and the supply chains to the shops? Do we also lock these people down to prevent transmission. And then what are we left with? Basically all the people keeping the country running have to go to work and go home whilst everyone else can do what they like?

Goods have been delivered to carers and vulnerable people SINCE LAST MARCH! Is it realistic to say that the hundreds of thousands of such workers have been sticking religiously to ‘the rules’? Or have continued to isolate themselves from others even when restrictions have been eased? NO.

There is no way we can protect the vulnerable from a disease that spreads this easily whilst still trying to continue as normal. And this is without even taking into consideration the knock on effect to the NHS (although you would probably be happier if these people were just allowed to die at home so that the fit people can still remain healthy).

You still continue to hint at the coroners etc. lying on death certificates, despite you having no expertise in that area, and yet you still refuse to provide us with your views on what these excess people are dying of. I see you still haven't acknowledged that your previous statement about numbers falling before lockdowns started was a bare-faced lie, I wonder why that is?

I did not say coroners were lying on death certificates. I said ‘Covid19’ is being listed on death certificates because of a +ve test result within XX days of death – if the person dies in a motorcycle accident and tested positive they will be counted AS A COVID DEATH!

This article in the Daily Mail regarding Lockdown 2 is just one example that supports my ‘bare-faced lie’ as you so kindly call it.

peter gotch  
#1313 Posted : 06 February 2021 20:04:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Yes Iron Chicken, we do understand that the numbers being reported daily are deaths from all causes within 28 days of a positive test.

However the example you suggest is perhaps a poor choice.

In each of the years from 2012 to 2019 (we don't have the official figures for 2020 yet) there were about 1750 reported deaths on the roads each year in Great Britain. Of these roughly 20% involve motor cyclists, so about 350.

Compared to excess mortality (compared to the average over 5 years) running at over 100,000 per year in the U.K. this is nigh on an irrelevant number from a statistical perspective [It is not irrelevant to the victims of road traffic accidents and their families and friends].

I realise that one of these figures is for GB and the other for the U.K. i.e. inclusive of Northern Ireland but from a statistical perspective adding a few road traffic fatalities in Northern Ireland would not significantl impact the relative numbers.

....and do you seriously expect us to believe what you read in your paper of choice? Doesn't exactly rate highly on audience surveys of their trust in media.

Edited by user 07 February 2021 11:06:57(UTC)  | Reason: Realised that I had failed to provide geographical scope for relative statistics

The Iron Chicken  
#1314 Posted : 07 February 2021 06:52:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

Remember Hydroxychloroquine?

HCQ was approved by the US Food and Drug Administration in 1955, has been used by hundreds of millions of people worldwide since then, is sold over the counter in many countries, and has a well-characterised safety profile.

2005 - Virology Journal: Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread

  • “Chloroquine, a relatively safe, effective and cheap drug used for treating many human diseases… is effective in inhibiting the infection and spread of SARS CoV in cell culture… suggests a possible prophylactic and therapeutic use.”

June 2020: FDA revokes permission to treat COVID-19 with hydroxychloroquine

Jan 2021 - American Journal of Medicine: Pathophysiological Basis and Rationale for Early Outpatient Treatment of SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) Infection

  • “The currently completed retrospective studies and randomized trials have generally shown… when started earlier in the hospital course, for progressively longer durations and in outpatients, antimalarials may reduce the progression of disease, prevent hospitalization, and are associated with reduced mortality.”

Why was permission to use HCQ revoked in June 2020 and doctors supporting HCQ use heavily censored?

Why, on 30 October 2020, did the AMA suddenly rescind its statement calling for physicians to stop prescribing hydroxychloroquine?

Considering that Trump was calling HCQ back in March 2020 ‘game-changing’, could the above be political in timing?

Does an existing, cheap, safe generic treatment make massive profits for Big Pharma? (Clue: no)

Does an existing, cheap, safe generic treatment avoid the immediate need for ‘emergency’ and ongoing vaccinations?

MOST importantly: if HCQ, a cheap generic treatment, had been in widespread use from the start of the ‘pandemic’ – as many physicians had started to do - how many lives would have been saved and how many hospitalisations avoided?

Does anyone know if HCQ is now approved for use as a treatment/prophylactic for Covid in the UK?

The Iron Chicken  
#1315 Posted : 07 February 2021 09:58:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post

Yes Iron Chicken, we do understand that the numbers being reported daily are deaths from all causes within 28 days of a positive test.

Apologies for the repetition - I omitted to say that I was actually addressing the statement in CptBeaky's post 1306:

"We know how many people died of COVID-19 and it is actually MORE than those that dies with 28 days of a positive test"

as I believe the converse to be true.

However the example you suggest is perhaps a poor choice. Or you are missing my point completely...

In each of the years from 2012 to 2019 (we don't have the official figures for 2020 yet) there were about 1750 reported deaths on the roads each year. Of these roughly 20% involve motor cyclists, so about 350.

Compared to excess mortality (compared to the average over 5 years) running at over 100,000 per year this is nigh on an irrelevant number from a statistical perspective [It is not irrelevant to the victims of road traffic accidents and their families and friends].

....and do you seriously expect us to believe what you read in your paper of choice? Doesn't exactly rate highly on audience surveys of their trust in media.

So provide evidence to refute the DM article then. With something other than government propaganda please.

CptBeaky  
#1316 Posted : 08 February 2021 12:54:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

We know how many people died with Covid-19 on their death certificate, but we also know how many had Covid-19 listed as the underlying cause of death on their death certificate, which was 73,444 in England and Wales in 2020. 

The underlying cause is defined as the disease or injury which initiated the train of events leading to death, and is determined by a medical professional or coroner.  We also know how many people died where Covid-19 was mentioned on the death certificate in any capacity, whether as the underlying cause of death or as a contributing factor.

This was 80,830 in 2020 in England and Wales. The difference leaves 7,386 people whose underlying cause of death was not Covid-19, but whose death was, in part, deemed to be caused by Covid-19. 

We also know how many people died in England and Wales in 2020 within 28 days (and within 60 days) of a positive Covid-19 test. This will include some people who tested positive but died of an unrelated condition. However, it also doesn’t capture anyone who died of Covid-19 but was not tested for it, which included many deaths at the beginning of the pandemic when testing was less common. 

The number of people who died in England and Wales in 2020 within 28 days of a positive test was 70,013 if you look at the date of death, and 67,611 if you look at the date the death was reported.

This shows that the deaths within 28 days of a positive test is actually lower, not higher than the number of deaths which doctors deemed Covid-19 to be the underlying cause.

Please note these figures are all based on year ending 2020, and do NOT include those that have died during January.

Just to repeat. These are the numbers of people that died of COVID-19 up to the end of 2020. These are the figures explaining why you are wrong. Unless you have figures to the counter you are basing your opinion on nothing more than speculation. I can do the maths if you find it hard. 70,013 reported to have died within 28 days, compared 73,444 that had COVID-19 put as the "underlying" cause of their death, 3,431 MORE!

Coroners are NOT putting COVID-19 as the cause of death just because someone tested positive within 28 days previously. These are two separate things. Your information is wrong

I already have refuted the DM article by showing the actual numbers, rather than an opinion. In each national lockdown the numbers continued to rise after the lockdown was annouced, for 2-3 weeks. The DM article was released on 6/11/20, however the cases peaked on 16/11/20 and deaths on 29/11/21, 10  and 23 days after the article was released. The DM is wrong, but surprisingly enough never recalled the article.

CptBeaky  
#1317 Posted : 08 February 2021 13:26:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

And one last thing, before even I bow out of this "discussion"

Why would we need HCQ to treat a disease that doesn't exist, in this pandemic that isn't real, for a virus that isn't killing anyone?

At least decide what your narrative is....

The Iron Chicken  
#1318 Posted : 10 February 2021 06:53:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

And one last thing, before even I bow out of this "discussion"

Why would we need HCQ to treat a disease that doesn't exist, in this pandemic that isn't real, for a virus that isn't killing anyone?

At least decide what your narrative is....

So, no thoughts on the apparently political suppression of a cheap, effective treatment / prophylactic  then?

The Iron Chicken  
#1319 Posted : 10 February 2021 07:04:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

How is a 10 year prison sentence for not disclosing having travelled from a 'red list' country proportionate?

NOTE: Please do not reply with 'well, that person is guilty of mass murder because everyone they come into contact with is going to die of Covid', or similar.

thanks 2 users thanked The Iron Chicken for this useful post.
SLord80 on 10/02/2021(UTC), jonc on 18/02/2021(UTC)
The Iron Chicken  
#1320 Posted : 10 February 2021 08:00:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
The Iron Chicken

There appears to be a concerted attack on Tanzania because their government didn't comply, they realised what was going on and chose not to follow.

Yesterday's Guardian article "It's time for Africa to rein in Tanzania's anti-vaxxer president" was in a section sponsored by... The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (BMGF).

Tanzania is currently on the UKGov 'Red List' of countries from which travel to the UK is banned.

WHO: Tanzania 509 confirmed cases and 21 deaths.

When BMGF, with a massive vested interest in Covid 'vaccination', sponsors a smear piece in the MSM, is it time to start questioning what kind of 'democracy' you're living in?

When your government tries to stop you from visiting other countries that don't go along with their narrative, is it time to start questioning what kind of 'democracy' you're living in?

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