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Kim Hedges  
#241 Posted : 11 May 2020 08:12:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kim Hedges

Incidentally, i'm still single and only 21, with 40 years of dating experience. 

chris.packham  
#242 Posted : 11 May 2020 08:19:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

So I am out there in the park, staying alert. I spot a corona virus. What am I supposed to do, stamp on it?

It it were not so serious, the 'alert' concept would be hilarious.

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Kim Hedges on 11/05/2020(UTC)
biker1  
#243 Posted : 11 May 2020 10:00:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

I too watched our illustrious leader last night. Not impressed. I think we have something in common with the USA - we both have the wrong people in charge. In view of the testing and PPE scandals, I do find it rich for him to be talking about protecting the NHS.

Mixed messages, as usual. An alert system to pick up local flare-ups, but virtually giving permission for people to travel, either for pleasure or work, so local problems will not remain local problems for very long. Unlimited exercise from Wednesday, which I basically agree with, as being out in the fresh air is safer, but it depends on how people instigate this, and our track record in many places is not good so far.

Fines are to be increased, but I fear there is so much confusion about what and what can't be done, I think police forces are also going to be confused about how to apply the rules. They have admitted to fighting a losing battle in places already. I note the 'bubble' idea seems to have been put on the back burner; it was alwsays a mystery as to how this could possibly be enforced.

There seems to be a mind-block about travel to work. Public transport will need to have capacity reduced by as much as 90% in order to maintain social distancing, if people take to their cars there will be complete gridlock on the roads, and just a passing mention of the obvious solution - walking and cycling, but even then the nature and distance of commuting for most people will make this extremely difficult or impossible. What about other forms of two-wheeled transport, which would significantly reduce congestion? These are the thorny questions most people will be concerned about, but leadership on this has been perfunctory so far.

This crisis has revealed that not only is the guy at the top the wrong person to lead us, but he is surrounded by people who are also not up to the job. And how did an order for gowns from Turkey result in an unusable delivery, despite reportedly being inspected by British official before shipping? Who is doing the ordering these days, Forest Gump?

We were all encouraged to volunteer to help the NHS, and three quarters of a million people did so, but reportedly most of them are still kicking their heels waiting for something to do. Many companies have jumped in to switch to making PPE and other equipment, and some have done so successfully, but many of them have been ignored by the government. I am not a great fan of Dyson, but they did jump in and spend a great deal of time and money to make ventilators, and were then told they weren't needed. Massive Nightingale hopitals were built in record time, but have been barely used, when other health conditions have been put on hold. Why weren't these used for COVID, to free up hospitals to do their normal work?

The UK has drawn disdain from other countries for our handling of the crisis, which I can understand, given that we have the highest death rate in Europe, and the second highest in the world

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Kim Hedges on 11/05/2020(UTC)
Kate  
#244 Posted : 11 May 2020 10:12:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

It's not the case that we have the highest death rate in Europe.  The highest number of deaths, yes, but the death rate (deaths per hundred thousand population) isn't the highest.  You should expect our number of deaths to be on the high side simply because we have a large population.

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Kate  
#245 Posted : 11 May 2020 10:18:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

gov.uk has published an account of what "Stay alert" means.  It means you must:

- Stay at home as much as possible

- Work from home if you can

- Limit contact with other people

- Keep your distance if you go out (2 metres apart where possible)

- Wash your hands regularly

That's an awful lot for "Stay alert" to mean.

The first point, "stay at home as much as possible", also contradicts the new permission to go outside for exercise and leisure as much as we like (in England).

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biker1  
#246 Posted : 11 May 2020 11:03:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: Kate Go to Quoted Post

It's not the case that we have the highest death rate in Europe.  The highest number of deaths, yes, but the death rate (deaths per hundred thousand population) isn't the highest.  You should expect our number of deaths to be on the high side simply because we have a large population.

I take your point, but I think a debate around number of deaths versus death rates is a bit like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

The original 'stay at home' tag line came with explanation and was understood (although not always complied with), the 'stay alert' change seems ambiguous and a watering down of the message, and yes parts of this do seem to conflict with the relaxations on going out and travelling. I feel sorry for the police forces who have to try and make sense of this gibberish.

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Kim Hedges on 11/05/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#247 Posted : 11 May 2020 12:03:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

They say the devil is in the detail - we are now seeing these changes are nothing to do with viral control and all about restoring the shareholder dividend.

What is the point of an air travel quarantine if people can still arrive by ferry or euro tunnel?

More correctly what is the point of stating a quarantine will exist and then immediately stating it does not apply to one country or another?

Better still how do these air passengers get to their "domestic" quarantine given only essential workers shoudl use public transport?

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Roundtuit  
#248 Posted : 11 May 2020 12:03:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

They say the devil is in the detail - we are now seeing these changes are nothing to do with viral control and all about restoring the shareholder dividend.

What is the point of an air travel quarantine if people can still arrive by ferry or euro tunnel?

More correctly what is the point of stating a quarantine will exist and then immediately stating it does not apply to one country or another?

Better still how do these air passengers get to their "domestic" quarantine given only essential workers shoudl use public transport?

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A Kurdziel  
#249 Posted : 11 May 2020 13:33:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

More thoughts:

‘Although we have had 30 years to prepare for what should be done in the event of a pandemic, I think we have all been rushing around trying to improvise investigations with insufficient time to do it properly. We can only hope that people will have taken advantage of their opportunities and at the end it may be possible to construct an adequate explanation of what happened.’

Read this and thought about what we going through right now. Of course it was not written last week but in 1957 by J Corbett McDonald of the Public Health Laboratory Service, to Ian Watson, Director of the College of General Practitioners’ Epidemic Observation Unit. He was referring to that year’s Asian flu pandemic. We don’t seem very good at learning lessons and planning properly. Things like making sure there are emergency stocks of PPE available to those that need them or maintaining a surge capacity for virus testing. What lessons are we going to learn this time and then forget.

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A Kurdziel  
#250 Posted : 11 May 2020 13:39:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Just read that the government is recommending a face covering (not a mask so there is no need for face fit testing or any of that) for anyone at work or otherwise where they cannot ensure social distancing.

I now await a definition of face covering. Should I invest in any of these?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Boris-Johnson-Version-3-Celebrity-Politician-Card-Mask-All-Masks-Are-Pre-Cut-/202720488226

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Roundtuit  
#251 Posted : 11 May 2020 14:39:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Another thing for the tut-tut brigade to moan about when they see people who choose not to wear this new adult comforter - we managed thus far without so just who are they trying to kid with placebo precautions?

Nearly as bad as Manchester Airports Group requiring passengers to distance, wear masks and gloves only to shove them in close proximity in a sealed cylinder breathing the same recycled air which pre-Covid would ban peanuts for all passengers if a single allergic passenger was on board.

Nits, chicken-pox, whooping cough and everything else they manage to acquire without "touching" should be a good indicator that it is highly unlikely reception children would be capable of social distancing.

Meanwhile the Police Commissioner of Wales reminds us that whilst England may be relaxing travel rules they have different laws (despite the same currency, passport, army, exchequer.....) some wag notes English shepherds being arrested at the border on suspicion of.........

And just which is it? On the same BBC web page the instruction varies between face covering and mask across four article titles - its not only Bojo causing the confusion

Edited by user 11 May 2020 14:41:45(UTC)  | Reason: covering or mask

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Roundtuit  
#252 Posted : 11 May 2020 14:39:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Another thing for the tut-tut brigade to moan about when they see people who choose not to wear this new adult comforter - we managed thus far without so just who are they trying to kid with placebo precautions?

Nearly as bad as Manchester Airports Group requiring passengers to distance, wear masks and gloves only to shove them in close proximity in a sealed cylinder breathing the same recycled air which pre-Covid would ban peanuts for all passengers if a single allergic passenger was on board.

Nits, chicken-pox, whooping cough and everything else they manage to acquire without "touching" should be a good indicator that it is highly unlikely reception children would be capable of social distancing.

Meanwhile the Police Commissioner of Wales reminds us that whilst England may be relaxing travel rules they have different laws (despite the same currency, passport, army, exchequer.....) some wag notes English shepherds being arrested at the border on suspicion of.........

And just which is it? On the same BBC web page the instruction varies between face covering and mask across four article titles - its not only Bojo causing the confusion

Edited by user 11 May 2020 14:41:45(UTC)  | Reason: covering or mask

thanks 6 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
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Holliday42333  
#253 Posted : 11 May 2020 15:35:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

Just read that the government is recommending a face covering (not a mask so there is no need for face fit testing or any of that) for anyone at work or otherwise where they cannot ensure social distancing.

I now await a definition of face covering. Should I invest in any of these?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Boris-Johnson-Version-3-Celebrity-Politician-Card-Mask-All-Masks-Are-Pre-Cut-/202720488226

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/public-advised-to-cover-faces-in-enclosed-spaces

I think this is the press release and it does not cover 'at work'

(And the cloth face covering is nigh on useless and impractical to impliment)

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Kim Hedges on 11/05/2020(UTC)
Kim Hedges  
#254 Posted : 11 May 2020 23:38:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kim Hedges

Lovely comments, keep it going.  I came across a reference to the size of the C.19 on facebook, apparently it's 0.125 microns or there abouts. 

So I thought, better check that number, then discovered this link to a facinating blog describing the scientific detail in all its glory.  Warning, it's very technical, it could be a hard read, but it's worth it, simply to be aware of the real science in describing Covid-19 (C.19). 

.https://www.fpm.org.uk/blog/covid-19-sars-cov-2-pandemic/

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RVThompson on 12/05/2020(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#255 Posted : 12 May 2020 09:00:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

A facebook post has been doing the rounds in which parents ask their young children various questions regarding the corona virus pandemic. I saw 4 of them on my feed last night. Each child (ages range from 5 to 10) answered "How did the virus start" with (basically) "A Chinese person ate a bat".

I think this shows both how impressionable young children are, and what an appalling job of reporting has been going on. When I questioned why children would think this nonsense (worded slightly less agressively) I was informed that "all sorts of theories are out there, and we will never know the truth".

Whilst I agree that we may never know the source, I think we can all agree that a lot of the "theories" are complete rubbish. I am, frankly, disgusted that their are grown adults that haven't even done basic research on this. If they said it was "aliens" would we treat the answer with the same reverance?

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Kim Hedges on 18/05/2020(UTC)
biker1  
#256 Posted : 12 May 2020 09:15:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

A facebook post has been doing the rounds in which parents ask their young children various questions regarding the corona virus pandemic. I saw 4 of them on my feed last night. Each child (ages range from 5 to 10) answered "How did the virus start" with (basically) "A Chinese person ate a bat".

I think this shows both how impressionable young children are, and what an appalling job of reporting has been going on. When I questioned why children would think this nonsense (worded slightly less agressively) I was informed that "all sorts of theories are out there, and we will never know the truth".

Whilst I agree that we may never know the source, I think we can all agree that a lot of the "theories" are complete rubbish. I am, frankly, disgusted that their are grown adults that haven't even done basic research on this. If they said it was "aliens" would we treat the answer with the same reverance?

Quite so. I think it's a combination of a secretive regime, and sensationalist reporting by the media. In the absence of credible facts, the media will regurgitate conspiracy theories.
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Kim Hedges on 18/05/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#257 Posted : 12 May 2020 10:41:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

We live in world of 24 hour news and they (and we expect them to) have to fill this up with something. Apparently once a upon a time they would say “There is no news today so we will show you this picture of a kitten playing” but nowadays there are hundreds of news organisations plus bloggers with hours to fill and in most cases advertisers to service so they need to put something out even if it is not true or relevant or important just as long as they can get the advertisers to link up with the punters. What I find annoying it that fact they speculate madly but don’t follow it up with anything like real investigative journalism, because that is hard and expensive. Pandering to peoples gut feeling is so much easier.

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Kim Hedges on 18/05/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#258 Posted : 12 May 2020 11:23:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

I thought it was Ozzy Osborne who ate the bat and then Freddie Star with the hamster.

Quite some time since I have seen the Sunday Sport at the news agents (just seen it is alive and well on-line)

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Roundtuit  
#259 Posted : 12 May 2020 11:23:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

I thought it was Ozzy Osborne who ate the bat and then Freddie Star with the hamster.

Quite some time since I have seen the Sunday Sport at the news agents (just seen it is alive and well on-line)

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biker1  
#260 Posted : 12 May 2020 11:36:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

I thought it was Ozzy Osborne who ate the bat and then Freddie Star with the hamster.

Quite some time since I have seen the Sunday Sport at the news agents (just seen it is alive and well on-line)

I thought it was Alice Cooper, or was that the chicken?
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Kim Hedges on 18/05/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#261 Posted : 12 May 2020 16:59:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Alice always said it was fans who threw the chicken

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Roundtuit  
#262 Posted : 12 May 2020 16:59:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Alice always said it was fans who threw the chicken

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Roundtuit  
#263 Posted : 13 May 2020 10:52:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Wednesday 13th May

Fresh guidelines issued by the College of Policing and the National Police Chiefs' Council urges officers to only enforce what is written in law as "government guidance is not enforceable: two-metre distancing, avoiding public transport or the wearing of face coverings in enclosed spaces".

Neither the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 nor amendment enacted Wednesday address social distancing specifically, so keeping two metres (6ft) apart is not a legal requirement.

If there is no legal requirement what is Sarah Albon & the HSE going to enforce in the workplace?

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Roundtuit  
#264 Posted : 13 May 2020 10:52:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Wednesday 13th May

Fresh guidelines issued by the College of Policing and the National Police Chiefs' Council urges officers to only enforce what is written in law as "government guidance is not enforceable: two-metre distancing, avoiding public transport or the wearing of face coverings in enclosed spaces".

Neither the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 nor amendment enacted Wednesday address social distancing specifically, so keeping two metres (6ft) apart is not a legal requirement.

If there is no legal requirement what is Sarah Albon & the HSE going to enforce in the workplace?

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biker1  
#265 Posted : 13 May 2020 11:35:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

It really is incredible, isn't it? Another example of joined up thinking (not!). So the police can't enforce anything much, and the HSE don't have much of a basis on which to enforce it. An utter shambles.

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aud  
#266 Posted : 13 May 2020 15:45:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
aud

The Police are only ever allowed to enforce actual law, not guidance, although they had trouble making that distinction in the early days. The CPS are reviewing CV enforcement actions as so many have been incorrectly served.

The HSE can enforce almost anything they want under 'lack of reasonably practicable measures to reduce risk' HASAW s2 if they were so inclined. 

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biker1  
#267 Posted : 13 May 2020 15:54:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Just an observation. When we had a few hundred deaths, we rushed into 'lockdown'. Now that we have (depending on which figures you believe) up to 40,000 deaths, it's a case of 'let's all get out again and go back to work'. Little wonder the press in Europe are scratching their heads about us.

Continuous dithering by the government. We've had thousands of people coming into the country each week, which one expert said was likely a contributor to the infection rates, without any effective checks, and the government is still dithering about imposing 14 days isolation for those coming in. Other countries instituted this a while ago. Some other countries put in place a requirement for masks/face coverings early on, but we're still dithering about this here.

I had to smile at the cases where action was taken against a couple of people for being outside without a reason; the trouble was they were homeless. You couldn't make it up, could you?

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Kim Hedges on 18/05/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#268 Posted : 13 May 2020 16:22:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Light blue touch paper and retire to safe distance......

Any coincidence that on the same day we have Police guidance on being unable to enforce distancing there is news of an on-line campaign for mass civil disobedience gatherings being organised by the anti-vaccination group under the name UK Freedom Movement.

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Roundtuit  
#269 Posted : 13 May 2020 16:22:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Light blue touch paper and retire to safe distance......

Any coincidence that on the same day we have Police guidance on being unable to enforce distancing there is news of an on-line campaign for mass civil disobedience gatherings being organised by the anti-vaccination group under the name UK Freedom Movement.

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chris42  
#270 Posted : 13 May 2020 16:35:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Ok I will have a go at this. I may be reading this incorrectly (So feel free to correct me) but don’t think so, it appears to give a very free hand to enforcement with this.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 Regulation 9 Offences and penalties.

Reg 9(5) If an offence under this regulation committed by a body corporate is proved—

(a)to have been committed with the consent or connivance of an officer of the body, or

(b)to be attributable to any neglect on the part of such an officer,

the officer (as well as the body corporate) is guilty of the offence and liable to be prosecuted and proceeded against and punished accordingly.

Reg 9(7) - Section 24 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984(1) applies in relation to an offence under this regulation as if the reasons in subsection (5) of that section included—

  1. to maintain public health;

Now

In Reg 9(3)  A person who, without reasonable excuse, contravenes a direction given under regulation 8, or fails to comply with a reasonable instruction or a prohibition notice given by a relevant person under regulation 8, commits an offence.

Reg 8 a relent person includes A constable, a police community support officer, a person designated by local authority / secretary of state for the purpose of this regulation.

Now I suspect it is an easy argument that following PHE guidance on 2m etc, would be necessary to “maintain public health”

Just for completeness it notes in paragraph (5), “officer”, in relation to a body corporate, means a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate.

So is this how they would prosecute you?

Making way as I type to concrete bunker with head down ( not going to even bother trying PPE on this one)

Chris

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Kim Hedges on 18/05/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#271 Posted : 14 May 2020 11:19:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: chris42 Go to Quoted Post
Now I suspect it is an easy argument that following PHE guidance on 2m etc, would be necessary to “maintain public health”

Guidance is discretionary therefore your argument is flawed.

The legislation clearly states "where practicable" and not that 2m is an absolute.

There are many areas PHE offers guidance. I don't recall anyone being prosecuted for not applying sun screen, failing to eat "five a day", consuming more than 21 units of alcohol a week, failing to have the MMR/BCG jabs... all factors which could improve public health.

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Roundtuit  
#272 Posted : 14 May 2020 11:19:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: chris42 Go to Quoted Post
Now I suspect it is an easy argument that following PHE guidance on 2m etc, would be necessary to “maintain public health”

Guidance is discretionary therefore your argument is flawed.

The legislation clearly states "where practicable" and not that 2m is an absolute.

There are many areas PHE offers guidance. I don't recall anyone being prosecuted for not applying sun screen, failing to eat "five a day", consuming more than 21 units of alcohol a week, failing to have the MMR/BCG jabs... all factors which could improve public health.

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chris42  
#273 Posted : 14 May 2020 12:03:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Yes, as always guidance is just guidance, but where above it has

“or fails to comply with a reasonable instruction or a prohibition notice given by a relevant person under regulation 8, commits an offence.”

So, if they give you any instruction in PHE guidance or not, they consider is reasonable to maintain public health (with regard to Covid 19 as that is what the legislation is about, opposed to other health matters). If you don’t do it you are effectively committing an offence. Hence my comment about wide open. It is also suitably vague.

Something in guidance could easily be taken as a reasonable instruction, couldn’t it. So, is it that flawed??? What does everyone think.

Of course, whether they would want to is another matter, politically bad I guess. To me though that would give them the means to do so.

Chris

Edited by user 14 May 2020 12:06:11(UTC)  | Reason: added last bit

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biker1  
#274 Posted : 14 May 2020 12:58:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Light blue touch paper and retire to safe distance......

Any coincidence that on the same day we have Police guidance on being unable to enforce distancing there is news of an on-line campaign for mass civil disobedience gatherings being organised by the anti-vaccination group under the name UK Freedom Movement.

Blue touch paper burning nicely. What is wrong with these idiots? But hang on, Boris said we've all got common sense, so this can't be right. Perhaps these people have just come back from Michigan.
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Kim Hedges on 18/05/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#275 Posted : 14 May 2020 15:00:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

But how do the police know it is reasonable guidance since they are not microbiologists, epidemiologists or virologists.  This is where it all falls down-knowing what to do and when is not common sense: it requires understanding and justification based on what is practicable.

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boblewis  
#276 Posted : 14 May 2020 15:39:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Originally Posted by: Kate Go to Quoted Post
gov.uk has published an account of what "Stay alert" means. It means you must: - Stay at home as much as possible- Work from home if you can - Limit contact with other people - Keep your distance if you go out (2 metres apart where possible) - Wash your hands regularly That's an awful lot for "Stay alert" to mean. The first point, "stay at home as much as possible", also contradicts the new permission to go outside for exercise and leisure as much as we like (in England).
For me the govt has recognised the essential message that safety practitioners also recognise in the whole question of developing safe cultures. The message “Stay Home” was straight out of the dependency culture, ie a rule following culture. This is the reason Kier Starmer does not understand “Stay alert” - it is beyond his ability to think fixed as he is by his rules are rules training and background in the labour movement. “Stay Alert” belongs to an independent culture where people are given information and encouraged to think and achieve solutions for themselves. The third stage is that of interdependency, Concsientization in the vocabulary of Paolo Friere, where we recognise the mutual responsibility for our actions as we relate to others around us and can assess and adjust our actions without need for input from “above” Those who complain of the lack of clarity are those seeking the comfort blanket of rules so they can say I did everything I was told.
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aud  
#277 Posted : 14 May 2020 16:03:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
aud

If you want the full context of 'reasonable instruction'  in the corona regs you need to include s8 - which then refers back to the specific requirements of s4-7.

The specific requirements therein (never thought I'd use that term) are mainly about the closure of specified businesses, being in a 'gathering', or the prohibition of leaving of your home without reasonable excuse (essential reasons being to get food, medicine, exercise, go to work etc) . The business closure aspect is quite straightforward. Leaving the main enforcement challenge 'have you got a reasonable cause to be away from your home?' 

So the police can instruct you to return to your home because you do not have a reasonable excuse to be out, in their opinion, and impose penalties on that basis. I don't think this is wide open. In fact it is quite limited. 

Everything else, physical distancing, how long/where/how often to exercise, what you buy in any shop you go to get food from, how often you go out shopping, how far you travel, is just 'guidance'. In England at least.

I gather from a legal blog that the CPS are reviewing hundreds of Fixed Penalty Notices as so many have been issued incorrectly. The police are effectively the whole judiciary when it comes to FPNs, especially now as the courts have also been closed.

Roundtuit  
#278 Posted : 14 May 2020 20:29:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

No legislation in any UK "government" makes 2m an absolute - even in their second or third published amendments.
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Roundtuit  
#279 Posted : 14 May 2020 20:29:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

No legislation in any UK "government" makes 2m an absolute - even in their second or third published amendments.
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chris42  
#280 Posted : 15 May 2020 08:36:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I fully agree that nowhere in legislation (in England) does it say that 2m is an absolute! (not absolute but more conditional in wales, to allow for NHS etc better)

What I’m suggesting is that the previous mentioned legislation gives a “relevant person” the ability to go give an instruction which they believe to be reasonable for the setting their in. Then if you do not do what they instruct you are committing an offence.

I was suggesting that they could quite easily decide guidance from PHE is reasonable in normal work places. Yes, it would not be reasonable in a hospital etc but other businesses where rouge employers decide it would cost a little money to have 2m distancing, then it would be considered a reasonable instruction. The police do not have to have any specialist knowledge of health issues themselves, just be aware of PHE guidance (which I think we all are now), who should have this specialist knowledge.

The way I read reg 9(7) is it stands on its own and is not subject to a continuation of Reg 9(1) which as noted does refer back to other regs.

“(7) Section 24 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984(1) applies in relation to an offence under this regulation as if the reasons in subsection (5) of that section included—

(a)to maintain public health;

(b)to maintain public order.”

So, all in all, I was suggesting you are not committing an offence by having employees less than 2m, until you are instructed to do so specifically. Only then if you don’t comply are you potentially committing an offence. Obviously, you can argue it is not reasonable in court.

Of course, none of us actually need legislation to do what is morally correct anyway, I was just trying to suggest a potential prosecution route. All part of an interesting discussion as far as I’m concerned, if others read it differently to me fine. You may even argue that public does not mean employee, I guess.

Chris

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Kim Hedges on 18/05/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#281 Posted : 15 May 2020 08:56:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The problem is that most of us do not have the time or money to “ argue it is not reasonable in court.” Which gives various busybodies the right to interfere where it is not helpful. Some people still don’ t get the underlying principles behind the Health and Safety at Work Act which is that it is the responsibility of the employer to decide what is best, through risk assessment   not for him  to wait to be told what to do by some outside party. I have come  situations where the inspector does just not get it and expects people to follow their whims.

Edited by user 15 May 2020 08:57:20(UTC)  | Reason: spelings

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Roundtuit  
#282 Posted : 15 May 2020 10:55:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

HM Gov strikes again.

Two week quarantine proposed and extended for all arrivals but with exceptions for France, Eire and now business travellers so just what is the point if there is no tangible and beneficial action?

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Roundtuit  
#283 Posted : 15 May 2020 10:55:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

HM Gov strikes again.

Two week quarantine proposed and extended for all arrivals but with exceptions for France, Eire and now business travellers so just what is the point if there is no tangible and beneficial action?

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biker1  
#284 Posted : 18 May 2020 11:22:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

The government is still dithering about on this one. It is not reportedly going to include France as an exception, but will include business travellers. Typical muddled thinking and indecisiveness.

Is it me, or is the media full of stupid reports of what so-called celebrities are up to? Meghan has baked a cake for Archie (!). This is not news. Not a fan of Ricky Gervais, but I'm starting to warm to him with his pieces on celebrities.

The government has succeeded in dividing the nation, with Wales and Scotland going their own way on 'lockdown'. Hardly surprising, given the dithering, blustering approach of BoJo. Nowhere is this more apparent than the current furore over kids returning to school, with local councils even kicking off (interesting that the BMA are in agreement with them). As someone else said, primary school kids are little bug factories at the best of time, what makes them think that they will socially distance, let alone understand the reasons for it? Damage and effects to the little darlings not going to school? What about the effects of going to school under the current precautions, when they can't play with or even go near their friends, but can't really understand why? Surely it's the older ones, who are pursuing qualifications and will be able to understand the situation, who should be going back first?

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Kim Hedges on 18/05/2020(UTC)
farrell1  
#285 Posted : 18 May 2020 15:43:22(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
farrell1

When it comes to applying the social distancing guidelines in the workplace it is recognised that we should be aiming to maintain a gap of 2m between employees at all times particularly at workstations and in canteens etc. However, there may be situations where it is not possible to maintain a gap of 2m and in these situations instead of rigidly following the 2m rule there should be a degree of flexibility applied. I'm thinking of the situation in an office environment whereby due to the layout/design of the building it may not be possible to maintain a one-way system one or more of the corridors or circulation areas. Therefore, to adhere to the 2m rule the corridor would in effect have to be roughly 4m wide to allow two people to pass each other going in the opposite direction. As part of the risk assessment process we have to think about the actual length of time when the gap is less than 2m when people pass each other (approx 1-2 seconds). Taken over the course of a working day this may be a total of 15-20 seconds per person. In my mind this puts the risk into some kind of context.

I'm sure we've all experienced the rather awakward situation when going for our daily walk outdoors when fellow members of the public start veering onto grass verges and roads in order to maintain the 2m gap possibly putting themselves in danger of being struck by a vehicle!

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Kim Hedges on 18/05/2020(UTC)
Kim Hedges  
#286 Posted : 18 May 2020 17:32:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kim Hedges

It dawned on me that Prof. Van Tam, the senior medical adviser to the English Government, bears a striking resemblance to Penfold of Danger Mouse fame.  Crikey Chief!

 

My Brother works for Network Rail, he has told me that the in-house controls to control the spread of Covid19 is in place.  90% of the office staff now work from their homes, including all the engineering staff.  Workers are ordered to phone into their offices if they really need to speak in person.  Plans and drawings are all put in dispatch via Royal Mail and similar.  Everything else is emailed, often with laptops using secure communication links or intranet.  A typical office in Cardiff used to have 160 people working over 2 floors of a multi-occupational building, now has less than 19 people working there.  Perspex screens have been erected in all works vehicles to separate the driver from the passenger.  All the depots have pedestrian signage to show one-way routes, 2 metre distancing and the workforce have also been broken up into shifts, working through the day up until 2100 hrs.  No hot desking, which was the norm previously.  Desks are empty for several hours between shifts, reducing the risk of surface contact.  Workers who flout the Covid19 rules can face disciplinary action under gross misconduct – for putting the workforce at greater risk. 

 

Meanwhile I have grown to hate listening to Government Ministers, Mr. Raab today, drone on about the Government position – why isn’t our Prime Minister not doing this?  Why do they keep presenting the same slides of text?  Why can’t we have a graphic showing the bicycle zooming down the slope of the curve?  It was pointed out to me that the Press can’t challenge these government types in the press questions, because they are muted during the answer.

 

I listened to Lord Sumpter (yes I know the spelling is a bit off) in an interview yesterday, basically saying everyone should return to work and that yes a few people will die, but so what, it’s not worth the financial ruin of the country.  In a way he is right, the number of deaths worldwide are tiny compared to say Malaria or even ordinary flu.

Kim Hedges  
#287 Posted : 18 May 2020 17:55:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kim Hedges

To add insult to injury, the current testing regime is pathetic and almost not worth doing as the test results can take up to a week.

So you think you might be sick with some of the symptoms, you contact the NHS for a test, you get tested, but then you have to wait.  

As I understand it, there are currently 3 national labs that conduct the work, nobody has really come back to confirm it's been automated yet, is it?  So perhaps 'they' need to build more labs to increase capacity and drastically reduce the waiting time, ideally within that 24 hour period.

This is also an essential tool for the contact tracing tests that need drastic ramping up.  Gee, the Government has said it has 16,000 people now to do the tracing. 

Roundtuit  
#288 Posted : 18 May 2020 19:55:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

More fuddling with the quarantine rules - if anyone is exempt just don't bother. See Neil Gaiman flew from his NZ home to give his wife some space by changing his isolation to his property on Skye (flying via the US and driving the length of the country) what an arrogant, ignorant, self important arse. IF the government want us to believe 2m is protection how do we defend against morons with money?
Roundtuit  
#289 Posted : 18 May 2020 19:55:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

More fuddling with the quarantine rules - if anyone is exempt just don't bother. See Neil Gaiman flew from his NZ home to give his wife some space by changing his isolation to his property on Skye (flying via the US and driving the length of the country) what an arrogant, ignorant, self important arse. IF the government want us to believe 2m is protection how do we defend against morons with money?
biker1  
#290 Posted : 19 May 2020 15:40:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: farrell1 Go to Quoted Post

I'm sure we've all experienced the rather awakward situation when going for our daily walk outdoors when fellow members of the public start veering onto grass verges and roads in order to maintain the 2m gap possibly putting themselves in danger of being struck by a vehicle!

Don't knock it, it's the only thing that has got people to move out of the way on cycle paths!
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