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Kapil  
#1 Posted : 02 March 2022 16:49:42(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Kapil

Can anyone recommend good providers for ISO 45001/14001 internal auditing please? Face-to-face classroom session is preferred.

Many thanks,

Kapil

peter gotch  
#2 Posted : 02 March 2022 17:52:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Kapil - haven't done internal auditor training, but I did the OHSAS 18001 (predecessor to 45001) Lead Auditor course with LRQA in 2003 - excellent and no reason to think that their standards may have slipped.

Good luck, Peter

thanks 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
Kapil on 03/03/2022(UTC)
Kapil  
#3 Posted : 03 March 2022 09:36:39(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Kapil

Thank you for the recommendation Peter! I will contact them.

Kate  
#4 Posted : 03 March 2022 10:50:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Good experience of Bywater Training has been reported by my colleagues, both face to face and virtual formats.

IanDakin  
#5 Posted : 07 March 2022 16:28:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
IanDakin

Hi Kapil

Did you want 1 person to go through the training or do you have a group to put through?

​​​​​​​Email me ian.dakin@safety-management.co.uk

peter gotch  
#6 Posted : 09 March 2022 15:14:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Kapil

One further thought.....

Do you want to train someone(s) up to be auditors of whatever, or auditors against ISO standards?

Non compliance with ISO standards may not mean failure to comply with what the law requires.

Equally, compliance with ISO standards does not necessarily mean compliance with legal requirements.

An auditor who is only going to worry about attaining or retaining ISO 14001 and/or 45001 would not need to be an OSH or environmental professional, as all they are doing is checking (a) if an organisation's systems meet the relevant clauses of the ISO standards and (b) that these systems are being implemented.

So the system might be fine from an ISO perspective but not suitable in terms of meeting the organisation's legal duties.

Which means that sometimes the terms of reference should not be confined to compliance with the ISO standard.

This is not to say that an ISO auditor course would not be valuable. It still helps to ensure the appropriate level of discipline in auditing - no wooly findings based on what the auditor thinks on the day, rather clear evidence to back up each non-conformance report or observation and equally to say that things are OK.

Kate  
#7 Posted : 09 March 2022 15:25:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I'm going to contradict you, Peter.

Compliance with legal requirements is a clause in each of the standards.  So to be fully compliant with the standards, you need to be compliant with the relevant legal requirements.

An internal auditor who isn't a specialist but is asked to audit this clause might look at the process by which legal requirements are identified (they are usually put on a register) and pick a sample of these requirements to check how they are being fulfilled.  For this reason, a good legal register doesn't just say what the legal requirements are, but how they are fulfilled and who is is accountable.  The internal auditor can then check that this is happening.

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 25/04/2022(UTC)
peter gotch  
#8 Posted : 10 March 2022 11:03:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Morning Kate - I don't  mind being contradicted! Important for any OSH professional to be prepared to be challenged.

However, consider the following as an example.

MHSWR Regs says you have to do a "suitable and sufficient assessment of the risks".

So organisation writes a policy for risk assessments.

Auditor comes in and audits a few risk assessments.

UNLESS the auditor digs deep they are unlikely to identify that the risk assessments are not fit for purpose (for whatever reason).

Suppose the system links to various company standards.

So, we have a job to do a minor repair to a sloping roof on a two storey building

Company standard might say that edge protection is always to be provided.

That might NOT be reasonably practicable.

The risk assessment might follow what the company standard says and the auditor will tick the box UNLESS they visit site to see what happens in practice.

Now, if they do visit site they might produce a Non Conformance Report for failure to implement company standard and do what the risk assessment says.

But it might be that the risk assessment is wrong. Perhaps what is actually being done is the application of the right measures. Tied access ladder, then roof ladder and so on.

So, perhaps arguably a breach of Reg 3 of MHSWR but NOT what that the risk assessment should be designed to achieve, in this case, inclusive of compliance with Work at Height Regs.

A variant on this scenario might be that the risk assessment does set out what is reasonably practicable for the actual job. In this case, the auditor might conclude that the company standard is the problem, but that might not in itself warrant an NCR (or even Observation) depending on the precise wording of the management system.

....and this is a relatively simple example.

Gets much more difficult if the auditor is looking at transient work activities in the middle of nowhere, not least since the auditor may not be able to do an unannounced visit to site to see what happens when the workers don't know that they will be getting watched.

....and it doesn't need to be in the middle of nowhere. Even in a factory all sorts of things get done once in a blue moon and in places that may not be easy to find, and even more difficult to find without the auditor setting off the alarm bells that they are coming.

My experience of both internal and external auditors is that very few would have a clue how to dig sufficiently deep in such scenarios.

Which means that the result is likely to be that the auditor takes the easy route.

Does the organisation have a system for risk assessment - YES

Has it done a risk asssessment for that roof work - YES

Ergo - organisation has provided evidence to support their ISO accreditation.

P

Kate  
#9 Posted : 10 March 2022 14:11:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I didn't say it was easy!

lorna  
#10 Posted : 11 March 2022 14:24:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
lorna

We used BSI and found them good.

sweetcandysp  
#11 Posted : 18 April 2022 03:06:19(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
sweetcandysp

Originally Posted by: Kapil Go to Quoted Post

Can anyone recommend good providers for ISO 45001/14001 internal auditing please? Face-to-face classroom session is preferred.

Kapil

 

Thank you all. I'm currently just coming to the end of my health and safety apprenticeship as my exams got delayed. 

 slope 2

Many thanks, 



Roundtuit  
#12 Posted : 18 April 2022 08:12:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Reported
Roundtuit  
#13 Posted : 18 April 2022 08:12:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Reported
Swygart25604  
#14 Posted : 30 May 2022 09:46:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Swygart25604

Make sure your provider's course is IRCA approved - if you want to do auditing in the future, that will be a must.

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