Rank: Forum user
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Hi all, if a (small) fire starts on site - record as an accident or a near miss? Probably an accident?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Near Miss Accident is something happening unexpectedly and unintentionally resulting in injury or damage without apparent or deliberate cause. Fires will always have an apparent and/or deliberate cause.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Near Miss Accident is something happening unexpectedly and unintentionally resulting in injury or damage without apparent or deliberate cause. Fires will always have an apparent and/or deliberate cause.
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Rank: Forum user
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The fire caused damage and "loss," were not sure at this stage what caused it.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I'd call it in an accident (an unplanned event that caused harm, damage or loss).
Whether or not there is an identifiable cause is not usually a criterion for something being classified as an accident - the whole point of accident investigation is to find out the causes of accidents.
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Rank: Forum user
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Thanks Kate, I have pondered over this point for some time, I can see it maybe a near miss, but looks more likley an accident (to me). As you mention - damage, injury or loss (the fire caused loss, of product). There were two fire appliances called, site manager said it was only a small fire / smouldering - really!
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Rank: Super forum user
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Hi JHF - does it actually matter how you classify it? Why not think of it as an opportunity to investigate and look for ways of improving?
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![thanks](/Themes/iosh2/heart_small.png) 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
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Rank: Forum user
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Hi Peter, it only matters as we make use of a software based health and safety system. Accidents are recorded different to near misses (they take you down different "routes"). They are all opportunities to investigate.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Some software systems I've used give fire its own category.
You will need to do what fits your software. If the accident category leads to a question about damage or loss (not just about injury), then that's where you will need to record the loss of product.
If on the other hand it requires you to state what injury happened, then you will need to enter it as a near miss (on the basis that it could have caused injury but didn't).
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Rank: Super forum user
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Hi JHF OK, so you are bound by some software solution. If that solution doesn't give you the opportunity for the same learning whichever way you categorise the event, is it the right software solution for you? Many years ago, I was asked to develop an incident investigation package for a Client who were tied to a proprietary package. They knew it wasn't working for them, so my brief was to try and train their staff how to use it better, whilst at the same time offering alterenative methods of investigation. One very senior member of the Client's organisation attending one of the courses explained how they were getting around the issues with the system. Words to the effect of: "We do the investigation via a different method and then complete the report using the proprietary system in reverse". To which my comment was: "That's cheating, but it's pragmatic." So, perhaps you could be pragmatic and decide which category to define this incident and see where the system drills down during investigation. THEN define the incident the other way and see how that investigation goes. Finally you pick which ever categorisation helps you learn most? Or you could just do a proper root cause analysis and then get the "system" to fit with your results.
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Rank: Super forum user
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In my humble opinion a fire is a FIRE and should be recorded as such. Why not introduce an Incident Reporting Book for recording such as this. Not all fires are Accidents or Malicious ignition. There are Other causes such as lightning strikes (Act of God) and sunlight shining on glass in a field of dry hay.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: JHF ![Go to Quoted Post Go to Quoted Post](/Themes/iosh2/icon_latest_reply.gif) The fire caused damage and "loss," were not sure at this stage what caused it.
But there will be a cause.
discarded cigarette end, dumped glass bottle, embers blowing through from a neighbours bonfire, "act of god", frayed electrical cabling, overloaded circuit, "spontaneous" combustion from a reaction or microbiological overheating, disgruntled (ex) employee, vape battery, laptop/e-bike/e-scooter battery & charger, wayward fire work, covered electrical heater, hot works.........
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: JHF ![Go to Quoted Post Go to Quoted Post](/Themes/iosh2/icon_latest_reply.gif) The fire caused damage and "loss," were not sure at this stage what caused it.
But there will be a cause.
discarded cigarette end, dumped glass bottle, embers blowing through from a neighbours bonfire, "act of god", frayed electrical cabling, overloaded circuit, "spontaneous" combustion from a reaction or microbiological overheating, disgruntled (ex) employee, vape battery, laptop/e-bike/e-scooter battery & charger, wayward fire work, covered electrical heater, hot works.........
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Rank: Forum user
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We would investgate this as an incident, if there is no injury and an accident if someone is harmed. We tend to look at accidents have harm to people, incident have harm to property / object, near miss is something that could have happene but did not result in harm to person or property / object.
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![thanks](/Themes/iosh2/heart_small.png) 1 user thanked thunderchild for this useful post.
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Rank: Super forum user
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If a piece of software dictates your H&S policy, procedures and incident data capturing, then perhaps you have the wrong software ???????
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![thanks](/Themes/iosh2/heart_small.png) 2 users thanked Messey for this useful post.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: Roundtuit ![Go to Quoted Post Go to Quoted Post](/Themes/iosh2/icon_latest_reply.gif) Originally Posted by: JHF ![Go to Quoted Post Go to Quoted Post](/Themes/iosh2/icon_latest_reply.gif) The fire caused damage and "loss," were not sure at this stage what caused it.
But there will be a cause.
discarded cigarette end, dumped glass bottle, embers blowing through from a neighbours bonfire, "act of god", frayed electrical cabling, overloaded circuit, "spontaneous" combustion from a reaction or microbiological overheating, disgruntled (ex) employee, vape battery, laptop/e-bike/e-scooter battery & charger, wayward fire work, covered electrical heater, hot works......... I forgot to mention "spark from passing locomotive". Messey will remember that one. haha
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![thanks](/Themes/iosh2/heart_small.png) 1 user thanked firesafety101 for this useful post.
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Rank: Forum user
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several of the larger multi-national company's I've worked with will only classify a Near Miss if there is no injury and no damage A fire would create damage. I'm in the 'Incident' camp on this one as Accident's would generally have some system/procedural/human failing and are considered 'Preventable' by many organisations, (Shell's ethos is that all accidents are preventable)
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Rank: Super forum user
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Hi Pirellipete Let's not get into a debate about whether "All accidents are preventable" on this thread! By all means start a new thread if you wish.
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Rank: New forum user
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I did call it an accident and why? Going by the definition accident is an undesired event that results in harm to people, damage to property, or loss to process. while near miss an unplanned, unwanted event that had the potential to lead to injury, damage or loss (but did not, in fact, do so). so the result of fire should determine if it its an accident of near miss besides if fire occurs or starts but hardly can a fire start without causing at least damages or more ,although the level of damages may depend on the time of the fire before its been put to a stop. and so far damage occur it cant be categorise as near miss. Also investigations we help in getting fact and accurate data which will help to reach a decision.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Please clarify the difference between undesired and unwanted as your definitions seem to infer these as unique and distinguishable.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Please clarify the difference between undesired and unwanted as your definitions seem to infer these as unique and distinguishable.
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Rank: New forum user
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undesired.. also means unwanted. unacceptable. unwelcome
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