Posted By Laurie If you can't do the CEO's job, Heather, then she must be female! Laurie

Posted By Wilf Archer A very interesting thread even though it did get little off the point. To bring it back on I'll try and paraphrase the point: Corrina and others feel that the decision makers are not listening to them, and this is what is causing them dis-“stress”. Well I can assure you that in all my years of dealing with decision makers in many organisations I have never met one that doesn’t listen. However I have met some that have “chosen” to ignore or rejected my advice but that is their choice. They are, after all, the decision makers and carry the responsibility of their actions or inactions. Our responsibility is to make sure that we provide sufficient information and advice in order to have a direct influence on their decision. In other words we need to communicate in the same language as the decision makers. Which means if we are talking to managers, then all information must be presented in ‘Managers Speak’. If we are talking with engineers then we need to communicate in ‘Engineers Speak’. A couple of scientists ‘Bandler and Grinder’ developed a whole communications theory around this whole problem – Neuro-Linguistic Programming or NLP. Here they made several presuppositions about communications, some of which are 1. People make the best choices given their resources available to them. 2. The map is not the territory. Our perception of reality is not reality itself. We do not operate directly on our world, but rather through our perceptual map of the world. 3. Behavioural Flexibility: The person with the most behavioural flexibility in a given interaction will control the outcome. 4. The meaning of a communication is the response you receive, regardless of your intention. Resistance is the result of inflexibility on the part of the communicator. It is the responsibility of the messenger to get the message across, NOT the listener's responsibility to get the message. 5. Failure equals feedback. There are no mistakes, only results. Without failure and mistakes, learning would be impossible. 6. Every behaviour has a positive intention (for the person doing the behaviour). Anyway without going too deep into the science and application of NLP, what I am saying is that - if people appear not to be listening to you then remember that it is the presentation of the message that requires to be adjusted. So change the presentation, talk in their language, use their jargon, whatever it takes. If they still reject your advice then recruit partners with extra clout. Provide them with options or solutions, or use Mental Judo if need be, but do enough to satisfy your own professionalism, don’t just get louder. For as long as you can justify to yourself that you did all that you possibly could then there is no need to make yourself ill. If you get annoyed then release it. Get a hug or eat chocolate or rant on this site but for goodness sake don’t get ill. So if you feel that you are getting stressed then remember It is Just A Job and the responsibility lies with the decision makers who are earning twice as much as you. If you want to be heard then learn to manipulate. The Role of the H&S Advisor Contrarian, Mediator, Confidante, Midwife, Jester, Mapper, Satirist, Alienator, Truth-seeker and Expert in everyone else's job :o) Take care Wilf.

Posted By Heather Aston Richard I hardly know where to start. So I'll start at the beginning. The bits in quotes are yours. "When someone feels they are backed into a corner," I am not backed into a corner by you - don't flatter yourself. Just because I attempt to respond to what you say does not mean I see you as a threat! Earlier in this thread you claimed that you had had no reasoned responses - I was trying to give you one - not quite sure how you managed to twist that round to this? "Significant in your response is the number of times you were outraged particularly in connection with ‘feminism’. Clearly this is a sensitive issue for you which, I suggest needs work." I did not actually use the word "outraged" once in my response. It's not a feeling I succumb too very often - certainly not about a posting on a discussion board - LOL! I did say "offended". Now I know they begin with the same letter, but the meaning is a teeny bit different. Nope feminism isn't a sensitive issue for me. I was simply trying to point out to you that you tend to resppnd to female posters with what amounts to almost belittling vocabulary - you have earlier in the thread implied that we should all be nurses because we're not tough enough to be safety professionals. "It is clear from your postings that you have a shallow intolerance of criticism." Not if it's justified! In my job I am used to constructive criticism and I take it in the spirit in which it was meant. I'm impressed that you think you can sum me up from a few discussion board postings.... "I’m unsure as to your experience as it has never been stated other than in very general terms. I wonder if we are not talking about, “apples and oranges” instead of comparing “apples with apples” no offence." Um. Not clear what you're saying here, or why my experience should be in any way relevant to this discussion. However if it helps I've worked as a safety practitioner in the UK since 1987, have consulted in a number of different fields including the police, education and the military as well as manufacturing industry and currently work as a safety advisor in manufacturing industry with responsibility across Europe. I've taught NEBOSH courses for a local college, have two degrees and am a member of professional institutions in three disciplines. Oh, and I've got a Latin O level. "Therefore, may I suggestion, disregard the emotional perplexed outrage and replace it with an opinion based on the evidence. After all that’s what a good scientist would do! It benefits no one when we loose our objectivity and feel constantly stressed from having to face a truth." No perplexed outrage here Richard - Certainly not from me. I base my opinion of whether safety practitioners are stressed or not on what I see, hear and experience - just like a good scientist. BTW I don't consider myself particularly stressed in my job - I was supporting those who did. I feel that I have retained my objectivity throughout. So do the various members of this forum who've e-mailed me off-line. "Richard (MSc)" Heather (not really into the letters game)

Posted By Karen Todd Eek! Think I'll go and join Emmerdale's Zoe under that table now! Karen

Posted By Zoe Barnett If not, there's a bit of space over here behind this parapet...ladies only though, so we can have a nice girly chat without having to do any of that horrid safety stuff. Bring your own chocolate.

Posted By Zoe Barnett For crying out loud, Richard, lighten up! This is a humourous thread, remember? However, seeing as you started it, I would remind you that women in the UK have had the vote for less than a century. As recently as 30 years ago we could be legally discriminated against on the grounds of nothing more our chromosomes. So forgive us if we're still a bit touchy when we get patronised. We've got long memories, if not of our own struggles but certainly those of our mothers and grandmothers who were denied education, opportunity and achievement. Sometimes they even lost life itself - hundreds died because it was thought "immoral" to use forceps to assist with childbirth, as it denied women their "need" to suffer in labour. Who knows what potential the world has lost, and continues to lose, through the subjugation of half its people? Women can laugh at themselves, as this thread admirably demonstrates; it seems a terrible shame that you have turned that laughter into mockery.

Posted By Corrina Evans Fats, I am so impressed to see a well balanced, forward thinking posting. I can hear a cheer from all the other well balanced, forward thinking people on the site. Richard, I was suprised you didn't answer my question ! Corrina

Posted By Heather Aston Richard After I picked myself up off the floor - I laughed so much at your response that I fell off my chair - I was all ready to shoot back a detailed point by point reply. However I realise that this is a waste of my time - clearly we are (literally) worlds apart and I reckon everyone else is getting a bit sick of it by now. So I will confine myself to three points: "The adage ‘you can take a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink’ seems appropriate." Yes it does doesn't it. (pot, kettle) "I noted that you took no notice of Wilf’s very helpful and interesting contribution" Au contraire, I thought - that in contrast to you - Wilf made some very good points, eloquently phrased and also taking account of the fact that people who deal with stress in different ways to him do not need to be ridiculed & insulted. However I was always taught to deal with one point at a time (good scientific principle) so I was responding to you on this occasion, not to Wilf. "By the way what science degrees do you hold; clearly they have not helped your deductive or inductive reasoning." Not that it should have any relevance to a discussion forum - sounds a bit like a p***ing contest to me - but I have Bachelor's and Master's degrees from Oxford University. You will probably have heard of it, even in Australia. For the sake of everyone who wishes to come out from under the table I wil refrain from further comment in this thread except about the subject on topic. (see what you started Corrina...) Heather "Go home, earth is full."

Posted By Jason Gould My Little bit Once Upon a time in a land far away and down under, a beautiful, independent, self assured but slightly stressed female safety officer, happened upon a frog as she sat contemplating ecological and safety issues on the shores of an unpolluted pond. The frog hopped into the princess lap and said: "elegant Lady, I once was a straight talking righteous prince, until an evil Sheila cast a spell upon me". One kiss from you, however, and I will turn back into the dapper young prince that I am, my sweet, we can marry and set up housekeeping in yon castle where you can prepare my meals, clean my clothes, bear my children, and forever fell grateful and happy doing so. That night, on a repast of lightly slated sautéed frogs legs seasoned in an Australian wine and onion cream sauce, she chuckled to herself and thought: "I don't F*****g think so!" Have Fun Jason

Posted By Wilf Archer Heather I would agree whole heartedly that different motivators for TUs and Directors as each have a different perspective of the same problem. Likewise the safety advisor has their perspective (usually the correct one):o). So if what we are doing isn't working then change what we are doing. In the saying " You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink." That is only true when all we do is show the horse the water but if we rub its tongue with a liberable quantity of salt it will take a drink. In fact depending on the quantity the horse will drag you to the water with great haste. So sometimes the role of the safety advisor is the person with the salt block and sometimes he is the person with the bar of chocolate and hugs. *¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´ Hugs and Wishes, Wilf

Posted By Heather Aston Wilf I like this analogy very much - obviously you know more about horses than I do! I hope you won't mind if I use it myself to illustrate the potential problems with communicationg the message. To return to the concept of NLP that you introduced several messages above. As I said I can understand and agree with the basic principle of this, but was not aware that it had been set out as a formal theory. Any recommendations on sources to find out more? Also, I had an e-mail reminder from HSE this morning about the consultation process on the new stress management standards. I'd be interested to know if people here have got involed in the consultation and whether you're intending to use any of the material in the standard? Heather "Make way villainy, heroes coming through"

Posted By Jonathan Breeze 'Scuse me - Can we have a working definition for stress please (just so that we are all talking about the same thing - somone mentioned apples & oranges)? The FAQ leaflet published by the Health & Safety Executive on the consultation document defines stress as: "...the adverse reaction people have to excessive pressures or other types of demand placed on them." Perhaps we can use that for discussion purposes (although where that leaves self certification is anyones guess). Thanks

Posted By Zoe Barnett We work with a stress management specialist who uses the term "pressure" rather than "stress" - some people find it easier to admit to being under pressure rather than being "stressed". I think this is helpful especially because the word "stress" has become a bit debased over recent years; people seem to use it for all circumstances regardless of how serious, and in some cases it's almost become fashionable. "I am stressed; you are under pressure; he is a wimp who can't stand the heat."

Posted By steve e ashton Fats, I thought the expression was 'if at first you don't succeed - don't try skydiving!' Steve

Posted By Wilf Archer Hi Heather I don’t know too much about horses but I have known a few managers who were as stubborn as mules. You are perfectly correct NLP isn’t really a theory but a communications Model put forward by Bandler and Grinder after studying several noted experts in the field of psychology and therapy etc. The model is based on the presuppositions I noted earlier which basically mean that each individual has a unique set of experiences, beliefs and attitudes of the world and these unique experiences etc filter all information presented to them. NLP provides some tools and techniques to overcome these filters. There are many good books on the subject and I would recommend typing NLP in Amazon.co.uk and have a look. Charlotte Bretto’s ‘A Framework for Excellence’ is a bit heavy but loads of examples. Unfortunately many don’t translate into application which means that you will need to try out the techniques - Practice makes perfect as the saying goes. I have found NLP (et al) invaluable in its application to persuasion management. Mind you the only reason I mentioned it in the first place was because I felt that Corrina’s initial posting was important and we could all gain from the discussion. Hope this helps btw – as a Reiki Master I never underestimate the power of a hug. Hugs all round. Wilf

Posted By Heather Aston Thanks Wilf I had googled a bit yesterday and that did lead me to Amazon fairly quickly. I was going to get the Jospeh O'Connor/John Seymour book on introducing NLP along with the audio tape version by O'Connor (I do a lot of driving and find this a great way to learn about new things) plus possibly the practical guide (workbook). This is all by the same author though, so I might change one of them for something different, to get a different view. The US Amazon site has rave reviews for "The new technology of achievement" but the UK site reviews seem very critical. Have you read this one and if so what did you think? You know the problem with Amazon is you're always persauded to buy one more book just to get free delivery! I think you've started something... Heather "You know you're a peasant when your idea of a seven course meal is a KFC and a six pack"

Posted By Hilary Charlton Don't you just love Tom Lehrer though? Cracks me up every time. Hilary

Posted By fats van den raad May I refer the Honourable previous poster to the following point under the "Acceptable use Guideline" 2. Users must not use the forums for any commercial purpose (including the advertising of jobs, goods and services), or operate surveys, contests or chain letters, or promote causes or campaigns. Course providers and product / service suppliers must only give basic contact details in response to a request for information about specific courses and / or products. Just thought I'd mention it. I get enough junk mail through the mail and spam through email, I don't want to have to wade through it on here as well!!

Posted By fats van den raad Just a question here.... How come me grand-dad never suffered from stress? I'm not arguing that stress is a problem, it's just that I firmly believe that as a society we have gone soft.

Posted By Jason Gould Fats My grandad said that in his day, jobs were two a penny and you could walk out from one factory and in to the factory next door blah blah. They were not wingers just walkers. He finnally settled for the merchant navy, bookies and hung himself at 64. Jason (a unstressed man with lots of distant relatives scattered around the world) ("I don't want anyone to take my pain away" "I need my pain")Captain Kurk the Enterprise.