Posted By Sally Bell
Ouch....I scarecely dare ask, I found the iosh site by accident when, wait for it.......looking for fire risk assessment forms that i might be able to canibilise to use within our almshouses!

I don't profess to be a fire safety specialist, (or even an H&S pro.), but effectively am the 'competent person' with regards to H&S including fire safety for our dept. (This was the view of the Fire Officer in our area when he was invited to advise etc.).

Like many of you I am trying to make sure that we comply with the new regulations, and as part of this am looking to improve our Fire Risk Assessment (in for a penny in for a pound), I have never come across a form that really addresses our particular needs, effectively we are a Landlord, and equally provide support to our frail elderly residents some of whom have Dementia, Drink and or smoke.

As such I must consider the safety of: Staff (mainly lone workers), residents, visiting care professionals, general visitors (possibly including children), sub contractors etc.

Us non-H&S pros. do try to do our best and I would certainly welcome any forms that might be appropriate - quite frankly the one that the local fire officer gave me just does not seem to address our special circumstances!

Posted By Chris Kennedy
There are some good user friendly forms in Protect your people and your business by Bryan Toone (iosh books). All of the forms in the book can be downloaded in PDF format.

I do agree with some of the other contributors that some degree of training is required to satisfy competence, due to the need to understand the nature of fire spread through a building and peoples response to that threat.

Posted By GJB
Jim,

I'm not always convinced that a £99-00 module will get you to the same place as an external training course. Depends on many factors, including objectives, learning styles, etc. etc.

Take care!

Posted By Sally Bell
I take on board what you are saying, training is important, however, I have yet to come across a book or course that addresses all (or even many) of the circumstances that we have.

I have been on a number of 'stand alone' courses both in areas of H&S and Fire Safety, they have yet to address the particular needs of our service user group and the staff that work with them - an opportunity for an astute & enterprising trainer to provide such courses perhaps? (I have no doubt that we are not alone in facing these difficulties)

In terms of the building itself, I seek advice from our surveyors in terms of fire breaks etc. , the building is the easy bit, what I find incredibly difficult in terms of risk assessing though is the unpredictability of PEOPLE.

How do you train a 94year old with Dementia to 'stay put'? This same individual struggles to remember who and where he is.

We implemented the Stay Put policy following advice from the Fire Service (in an effort to reduce the risk of a couple of dozen frail elderly people under the influence of sleeping pills / nightcaps etc. who at the best of times struggle to get down stairs if they can manage them at all). We replaced doors to increase the safety time etc.

So what happens when the alarm goes off unexpectedly? .......Half of the residents mill around the corridors adjusting their hearing aids ('battery must be flat' says one), and even open the automatic doors put in to reduce smoke / fire spread!

I have now completed my latest Fire Risk Assessment and as a result have asked the Fire Brigade to come in again, and train our residents again, however I suspect that the next assessment will identify exactly the same hazards!

Posted By GJB
Ooh Sally, don't get me started!! Unfortunately your comments about training courses are reflective across the country. They are mainly 'bog-standard' courses, written to try and cover all bases. I had many arguments with a course provider in a previous job because part of his course was safety of using Fork-Lift Trucks! We never had, used or saw FL T's in our workplace and I therefore saw this as irrelevant. Their view was.. It's in the syllabus, so we have to train it!! They also omitted various 'key' issues to us, because 'It wasn't in the syllabus'!! That provider was dispatched with very quickly! (The frightening thought here is that our schools all work 'to the syllabus')!

In terms of how do you train a 94 year old with dementia, the simple answer is 'You don't'... But what you can do is train the support staff of exactly what to do to help that person and maintain their safety.

Before any training takes place a full Training needs analysis needs to occur, identifying exactly what the objectives and current learning levels are. The training should then bridge that gap. I know a company that does this, but had better not advertise!

Take care! And fear not, ye old fire services!

Posted By Ashley Wood
Sally, I sympathise with your predicament but is it right that your organisation is placing you in this predicament? This is an example where you should accept that you need outside help i. e a fire engineering consultant. A fire consultant gives advise not only on risk assessments but on strategies, hazard analyses, structural fire protection measures, etc., etc. There seams to be a lot of reluctance to make use of the specialist that are out there and are eager to help, why is this? The fire services are going to be more and more reluctant to offer advise as this puts them in a difficult position. They have the task of enforcing the legislation, they will find it hard to do this if they are offering advise!

My company has made contact with more than 200 nursing home and sheltered housing organisations over the past 6 months and not received a single response, why is this? The care sector is going to be high on the agenda for the enforcers as there are major life safety issues to be addressed, so I would have thought that the offer to have a consultants assistance would have been taken up.

Posted By Sally Bell
Oh GJB, if only you knew - as you may be aware, the Govt. Agenda for older people is to enable them to remain in the community maintaining their independence (Undoubtedly what i would want too). Consequently many of our residents would until recently have been candidates for nursing or residential care. However many are now refusing to move into this higher level of care and unless they are sectioned (and LA's, HA's & GP's are reluctant to section in part due to the funding implications of future care), we are not in a position to do much about it.

You see we are not care providers and as such have one member of staff on duty during office hours, my risk assessment for these staff even during office hours when they are actually there identifies that to maximise their safety (and to some degree that of the residents), they should GET OUT and STAY OUT. One person is not in a position to deal with the numbers and in addition, they know the building and are of better use to the Brigade in advising who is at greater risk etc. Again this policy has been supported by the local fire service.

Nightmare it is!

Posted By GJB
Harry,

I'm going to put that word.. 'subliminal' in my personal dictionary.. I like the sound of that!

Take care!

Posted By Harry_Johnson
That hit the spot then ;-).

Actually guys, I was admiring your skills, and certainly not complaining about it.

I got one of my best clients from this forum - but by directly approaching them. None of this pussyfooting around!!!

Ashley, I hope you checked your spelling/grammare before sending the flyer out ;

Posted By Harry_Johnson
.... or at a greatly reduced/discounted rate, as you feel so strongly about it ......

Posted By Sally Bell
Free lunch at the Thursday Lunch CLub - an ideal opportunity for you to meet the client group etc.

Not a good idea to wear smart gear, and you shouldn't be too squeemish, we will of course ensure that you get the food that has lumps (not liquidized in other words)!

Posted By J Knight
Just a quick point on the 200 Care organisations contacted; if we were one of them the reason we didn't take up your (or anybody else's) offer of assistance is that we have got this one reasonably taped. It is true that a lot of employers in this sector haven't done very much though; one of the UKs biggest care providers, with a competent H&S team I may add, seems to have done nothing at all as far as the H&S people can see,

John

Posted By Charlie Gunter
Downloads available from

www.safeandhealthyworkin...tion/downloads/index.cfm

Plus other goodies

Charlie

Posted By Safetynut
Remember In order to comply with the new Fire safety Order, and to reduce your risks further , you will need to complete all 11 sections.

Prior to this new legislation, you only legally needed to complete sections 2, 3, 4, 9, 10 and 11.

1. Fire Safety Management Policy
2. Sources of Fuel
3. Sources of Ignition
4. Identifying People at Risk
5. Dangerous Substances
6. Luminous Discharge Tubes
7. Firefighter Protection
8. Spread of fire
9. Firefighting and Detection
10. Emergency Routes
11. Maintenance and Testing

Posted By Sally Bell
I gave up on using a 'ready made version' and opted to use the risk assessment form provided by our local fire brigade along with bits from others in the areas that seemed to not address our particular needs.

Strathclyde Fire service form is good!

Posted By TBC
I don't want any FRA forms - I'm sick of them. They are like Heinz 57 varieties. I have served many years in the Fire Service before going fully into H&S. I've also done a two day FRA course many years ago run by the Fire service College. Now a colleague of mine has been on the NEBOSH week course, is that of 'better' standing? Is he better qualified and the competent person?

Posted By Peter Leese
Sean, I can't think of the circumstances where a provider of an assessment could be sued as a result of an improvement notice to improve the assessment - at least not without the chance to improve the notice. Care to elaborate a little?

Generally - Out of interest, are improvement notices in the public domain? In other words are members of the public able to gain access to improvement notices?

Posted By Crim
Hi everyone,

Sorry to jump into this one so late but just noticed it!

As an ex fire service officer for 24 years and now 16 years in H & S specialising in Construction, if anyone out there is still looking for a fire risk assessment information gathering form email me and I'll send mine by return.

My form is based on the K I S S theory and asks all relevant questions required. It is simple to use and has been approved by many regulatory inspectors in the past.

Question to Shaun, why not ask the fire authority for help and guidance? after all they are one of the enforcers of fire risk assessment - we should not be too proud to ask!
I gained some guidance from them last week, it was free and I have now recorded it in case of any problems later.

I have also asked a fellow osh chat user for guidance on a construction issue (CDM Regs) and he has obliged, - thanks Stephen.

Point for Ashley re the 200 or so care homes written to - perhaps they are already sorted or your company could be a little too expensive for them.

I carry out consultancy work on a "Cheap and Cheerful" basis and have enough work that comes to me on recommendations.

I too enjoy this exchange of information and have become to accept that not all contributions are relevant but it is up to each one of us to take out of it what we need and discard the rest.

burns.cs@tiscali.co.uk

Posted By Peter Leese
Does anyone else know of improvement notices issued by Fire Authorities, is it as common as Shaun's experience suggests?

Posted By Peter Leese
You've really lost me now Shaun. 'It could have resulted in a prohibition notice' is not grounds for a civil claim. Neither, I suggest, is the issue of an improvement notice.

So really, the reference to the assessor's PI is just a threat by the client?

But this one is a beauty - 'because the risk assessor had failed to identify that the loss of a means of escape.....'. Obviously I don't know all the facts but if a means of escape has been lost then that is not the fault of the assessor. And it begs another question.

Who sanctioned the loss of an escape and shouldn't any legal action be pursued in that direction rather than just the assessor?