Posted By Pete Longworth Why should we know expect to know any of those details? What difference does it make if the person making the request is Affiliate, TechIOSh, CMIOSh or some other category of person. The fact is they are asking for assistance because for some reason they don't feel able to complete the task on their own. Presumably if it is a CMIOSH asking for help you would be more likely to give it because "they would have a level of competence that would allow them to understand". It could reasonably be argued that someone who is CMIOSH shouldn't need to ask for a risk assessment or document template. This whole debate reeks of snobbery and elitism. Plagiarism - rubbish. These are not great works of fiction (or are they?, or treatises delivered to the Royal Society. We are only talking about risk assessment templates, powerpoints etc. If you are worried about your precious powerpoints doing the rounds then don't reply to the request. This is a public forum where people can discuss topics relating to health and safety and that includes asking for help or advice.

Posted By Merv Newman Pete, our main complaint is about the lazy ones. And the plagiarists. The typical HSE plant manager:officer/coordinator/whatever, dumped with a project about which they know very little can come here for help. And get it. Happens to all of us. And we are very grateful for the advice. Anyone who styles themselves as a "consultant" should not (or very rarely) come here. We (wot has "consultatn" on our bisness cards) are considered as, and paid by our clients as being "know-it-alls" Informed, measured, considered, immediate replies to whatever the client asks are the essentials of our trade. Replies such as "I'll get back to you on that" are not acceptable. This said, there are many IOSH members who do not have our years of experience. They need/deserve our help and advice. Gawd. If only this forum had existed when I was learning the trade ! (early 1980's)( Actually, now I think of it, from 1976 onwards) As reported above, I will not provide templates or documents. But I will help you to produce your own. copyright Merv Newman 2007 (c) now for the plagiarists : Remember Tom Lehrer ? (1960-1970) ? "Plagiarise, plagiarise, plagiarise /let no-one else's work ever evade your eyes/ but Plagiarise, plagiarise, plagiarise" Fine. But acknowledge the source. Copying from one author is "plagiarism". From two it is "Research" and could qualify you for a professorship. From three and you should first get a Medical Research Council grant. More than three authors counts as "meta-research" and should not be undertaken before obtaining an EU grant. (and a deep understanding of "sigma") Merv Merv

Posted By Pete48 How about a couple of quotes from Harry Truman, the President of the US when they had real Presidents! "There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know." AND "It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit."

Posted By GARRY WIZZ I collect information and only now and again give information. Thank you for giving so freely as it has helped me and the employees. Life has become safer. I like the mix of the donuts and the 'I know it', I got letters. I have gathered quality from both donuts and letters.I have had rubbish from both donuts and letters. I have learned from here that letters does not mean you are competent, you might be, or you might be just good at learning and no good at the coal face. For the items I have given away, do as you please, I am not so puffed up as to require applause. If I should ever have something of magnitude to disseminate then I will of course publish it through a bookseller. Good forum, good question, letters and donuts givin it some but would score it even at the mo

Posted By Edward Shyer Hi Stephen, You asked should we as H&S professionals give out safety information to inexperienced and not yet competent requests on this website? IF I am not an H&S professional then I couldn't answer this question? If I am an H&S professional I would say YES ? A thought Do not health and safety professionals give out safety information on a day to day basis via training sessions, tool box talks, and general queries during the course of the Job. What difference does it make if it is on the iosh website or not??? Regards Ted PS: has anyone got a copy of a working at heights risk assessment they are willing to let me look at.

Posted By Robert K Lewis Robert As i said earlier - because management documents are not wheels and some people think they are and can be used whereever without any change Bob

Posted By Robert Paterson Bob I wasn't being flippant when I said that, but some people are looking for a template to work from. I personally would not use someone's presentation as I would not know the sentiment and thoughts behind it. I would simply change to suit my understanding. We can all know what we would like to write in a presentation by laying it out is a different matter but by looking at someone else's presentation can help to lay your information out. I have helped numerous people out but always say to adjust or alter to suit them. Regards Robert

Posted By Robert K Lewis Robert I recognise well that there are those, like yourself, who will use templates etc as a start point and I have no problems with such persons. The issue really for me is sorting out those who want to fit a 14 inch wheel onto a vehicle needing 20 inch wheels. Even more so when they immediately sell it on as their own work. Bob

Posted By Merv Newman May, thankyou. Yours was the response we were all looking for. Someone who needs and appreciates the help some of us offer for free. Freely. I strongly believe that each one of my (many) grey hairs represents a particular procedure, presentaion or training session. Don't worry. You'll get some of your own soon. Then you can help us. Why does my wife keep recommending that greek stuff ? (and I don't mean the yoghurt)(but then, maybe SHE does)(?) Merv

Posted By May Warley A lot of good souls on this site would usually give me some hints which are usually guidance to which legislation I should refer to in order to solve the H&S related issues. I find that as a newbie, I don't view an issue the same way as a H&S pro does. I am sure a lot of H&S newbies out there would agree with what I am trying to say. But I know I'm getting there.... :-)

Posted By Andy Brazier I have been following this discussion with great interest. I don't think a conclusion will be reached because there are clearly quite opposing schools of thought. One area of disagreement is how best to benefit from intellectual property. One view is that you should keep it tightly controlled so that a small number of people get the greatest benefit. The other is you make it widely available, and hope to benefit via the spin off effect. I tend to be agree with the latter. As an example I have two blogs that I believe have been of interest and use to a significant number of people. I don't charge anything for the information, but include a link to my website in the hope that people will take the blogs as a sign that I know what I am talking about and hence worth engaging as a consultant. I am not allowed to tell you any more about the blogs because IOSH will not allow it, which I think is a great shame. Another area of disagreement regards copying of work. You can either be annoyed, because you think someone else is getting the benefit from your effort, or you can be flattered that someone wants to copy you. I agree this one is not so clear cut. For example I have written something that I sell in PDF format for a couple of pounds. I have made little effort to stop people copying, beyond asking them not to. Now if I found out 1000 people had a copy but I had only sold one, I would be quite upset. However, I have probably sold about a 100 copies to date and would be quite flattered if I found out people thought it good enough to pass on to others. Of course I would rather everyone had paid, but realistically that will never be the case. Now I don't really understand why anyone would be upset if a contractor turned up with one of my method statements, risk assessments etc. If you think you have something useful, why would you not give it to then in the first place? We are all trying to achieve the same thing at the end of the day, and so keeping things like this confidential makes no sense to me. Finally, people seem to get upset when consultants ask for documents etc. Now if they are passing these things off as their own work that is poor, but I would not worry about it too much. The reason I say this is that consultants have to be very professional in everything they do. If they are passing off other peoples work as their own they will get found out and they won't last long as a consultant. Equally the consultants that do this are probably the ones who charge low day rates in the hope that they will be busy all the time (i.e. £200 - $250 per day). I know these rates sounds like a lot of money to someone who has a regular wage, but given the uncertainty of work and the costs of running a business it is not enough to make it worthwhile if it is your only income. For some reason consultants seem to come if for stick around here. An interesting debate and long may it continue.

Posted By Healthy Debate Agreed... ...it's always prudent to proof read what you type. As a H&S 'Professional' you spelt 'information' incorrectly. Well done indeed! So in answer to your question, yes we should help the 'inexperienced' as they and you need all the help that's going.

Posted By Pete48 And I often wonder whether one should write "an H&S" and not a H&S since you might otherwsie verbalise it as a "aitch and ess"?? Now that could be a useful debate?

Posted By Dave West I think each case needs to be looked at separately. I like to think that most of the time i can suss out the copy and paste merchants but see nothing wrong in giving people an idea what to look for though in specialised areas i feel it needs to be advised to seek competent expert advice. What i always remind myself is that We all have the same common goal and that is to ensure that people go home to their families safe and unharmed.

Posted By P I Kinvig As a 'discussion' forum isn't this site intended as a place to find out other peoples opinions? Assuming that it's fellow humans answering the topics I also assume I wont get a definitive answer; in fact I'll probably have to consider all the options and take responsibility for my eventual decisions myself. I'd say give what advice we can, in my book the fact that someones even bothered to ask puts them ahead of a lot of the workforce. Help people, but don't do it for them is a good approach.

Posted By AdrianF Those that can do, and those that can't, teach each other. Experience teaches, insecurity builds walls.

Posted By Raymond Rapp Pete For what it is worth this CMIOSH agrees wholeheartedly with your sentiments. Come on guys and girls, lets see a little more charity and humility from the profession. Regards Ray

Posted By AF Hear, hear ..........! It is my understanding that those who are CMIOSH/Dip 2/NVQ 4 (or 5)/MSc qualified etc are supposed to have the depth & breadth of the H&S knowledge required to fulfil their "roles" whether it be advisor/manager/officer/consultant or whatever It does annoy me (a lowly Tech IOSH who is currently studying for Diploma 2) when these so called "experts" constantly request "freebies" from this site to save them getting off their (dare I say it) "backsides" and doing the work. Surely this does contradict the ethics laid down by our profession, when we are supposed to be a chartered organisation with a suitable mix of competent & professional persons (I do realise there are a mix of Good/Bad and not everyone should be tarred with the same brush) I have previously stated this, I am not too proud to ask for assistance whenever I request it, and is normally a pointer in the right direction, rather than requesting a form/template/procedure or whatever. I take more pride in developing my own skills and experience this way, and learn - its more meaniningful.

Posted By Garry Adams Information and Education is the food and drink of intelligence, it is part of our remit to feed the hungry. As Safety Practitioners it is our duty to minister to the unenlightened. Every Profession has it scallywags and Fly by night wide boys... H&S is no different, why should the majority of those seeking enlightenment suffer for the frailties of others ? Regards, Garry...

Posted By Sharon Maybe IOSH could "Sticky" this thread?