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Posted By A Hayden
I work in a College and when a staff member has a birthday, they provide cakes for their colleagues to enjoy. Some talented cooks bake their own cakes and these are particularly enjoyed as they always taste much better than shop bought buns.
However the College Powers have now directed that due to Health and Safety, homemade cakes are no longer allowed on the premises. This has caused outrage in the staff room and emails are flying around whipping us up into a frenzy of domestic and scientific outrage.
It has been questioned if you have a packed lunch but your colleague has none, are you allowed to offer them a sandwich or....a bun?
Also if Health and Safety will examine your sandwich filling and adjudicate on whether it is fit for Human Consumption.
The most amusing thing is the college has a restaurant where the Catering Students devise and cook the menu as part of their course, and today's special includes a soup described as "homemade".
I wish this was just a silly made up story but it is absolutely the truth. Can anyone help me to refute this new rule with a good argument?
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Posted By JonH
Unfortunately, there have been several stories in the press over the last year or so about this. I remember a debate on Radio 5 last year about a 95 year old in a care home, her friend baked her a birthday cake but the care home refused to allow it because of "health and safety reasons".
I think this should come down to common sense. If it is during a break time, and a colleague wants to eat some of their friends homemade cake, I dont see what the problem is. If the individual went back to their colleagues house at lunch time and ate a homemade sandwich, would that be banned also? What about a colleague making their other colleagues a cup of coffee or tea - should that be banned also incase they contaminate the drink in some way?
That said, I am severely allergic to Brazil nuts, so if a colleague baked a cake containing Brazil nuts, and I ate some without realising it, I would be pretty ill. However as I know about my allergy, I either ask first, or avoid the cake.
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Posted By Sally
It would be interesting to know what the college health & safety professional thinks of this!?
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Posted By Jay Joshi
It is one thing for the college to lay down these type of rules if the cakes were being sold (even then in my view over the top!), but this is ridiculus.
Have you asked the powers to be and the college health & safety advisor be what food safety issue is involved and what is the level of risk??
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Posted By JonH
It just seems a totally ridiculous position. If it is on some public health grounds, then as Jay says, what is the level of risk? Surely there is far more risk of disease and ill health being spread about by other means - coughs, sneezes, not washing hands after using toilet etc etc...
Whilst it is true that people preparing and handling food should have some basic food hygiene training, some measure of common sense and proportionality must come in to the equation. And surely it is down to the common sense of the person choosing to eat the cake, it is optional after all!
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Posted By Dave Merchant
Unfortunately the college is acting 'correctly' to an extent, in that home made food products have no end of problems satisfying the laws on food production and hygiene and so are most easily dealt with by banning them - and before everyone shouts back "but it's HOME MADE!!", the distinction isn't as clear as it should be when items are then brought into a workplace 'with permission' and shared amongst employees. The Directives do partially exempt "Activities such as the occasional preparation of food by individuals or groups for gatherings or for sale at charitable events." but the General Food Regs 2004 do not, and should someone suffer an allergic reaction the employer's liability would be difficult to predict. Of course there's no suggestion that home made food is any more or less dangerous than something from the corner shop, but at least the shop has insurance.
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Posted By Pete48
So, we ban homemade cakes, spoil the party, reinforce the stereotypes, lose the plot and all to save the poor old employers' potential liabilities. No wonder they get the H&S dept to put out the ban!
It would be really interesting to see the different results of the task analysis or assessments that must surely have been completed to determine these safety critical control measures and why one set of controls give acceptable risk and the other does not.
I am totally surprised that there is a "risk" of food poisoning associated with eating food, who would have thought it:):) I bet you someone, somewhere has actually been poisoned from eating food whilst at work; and someone will probably respond with all the details and tell me I am being facetious and missing the point.
Being at work these days must be quite frightening; if Betty's homemade tea cake doesn't get you, the bugs on the telephone will; and then there are those breeding grounds of countless millions of who knows what called the staff kitchen where you can find at least ten cups , some washed, some soaking in grease streaked tepid water, a spoon or two laying unwashed or placed carefully in a pot of cold water for the next person to use. Then just when you thought you had survived, you touch the door knob that has been touched by a colleague with the latest noro,mrsa,super whatsit do dah bug. And its a good job you didn't use the loos today, did you know that some people don't wash their hands every time after they use the loo; what sort of irresponsible behaviour is that? Must be able to get them on a safety violation surely!
Well don't worry about it all, 'cos you can self certify for 7 days and that gives you plenty of time to get your interview with your solicitor fitted in and your claim form properly completed and sent off. According to many on this forum, you have a better than even chance of being succesfull with your claims.
p.s. No I am not serious, just bored and tired. Why does this forum seem to be stuck in the trivia of life most of the time?
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Posted By andy bee
Bang on pete
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Just wonder which is safer home made where people cook only if they feel well enough or factory made where workers have to work, even suffering with norovirus etc, or lose their job.
Quite honestly food arrangements between staff on a personal basis in the staff room during breaks seems to be stretching the at work and section 2/3 duties a tad more than the EHOs would want. Unless they are of course on a quota, which I am not remotely suggesting.
My risk assessment points to banning any food made by factories or commercial organisations as the risks are clearly higher.
Bob
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Posted By John Donaldson
This is not as straight forward as it sounds.
We don’t ban birthday cakes here but have had to spell out what is acceptable and what is not.
We found that a number of departments were organising functions and that in order to cut costs staff were being encouraged to bake cakes and other goodies which would be consumed by guests.
I think most would agree that this would not be acceptable on a number of grounds safety being one of them.
I have not set out the whole of our guidance on this matter but the opening statements says
“During the course of the year many departments and sections will organise functions where food is served.
The Food Safety Act requires the University to exercise "due diligence" to ensure that persons partaking of food and drink do not suffer any ill affects.
Where the department or section engages the services of the University Catering Service the "due diligence" requirements will have been met.
However there may be occasions when the department or section wishes to engage the services of an external caterer or to prepare the food and drink in the department or section. In this case the department or section will have to ensure that the due diligence requirements are met.
If for example a small group of people brought in some cakes or sandwiches to celebrate a birthday this would fall outside the scope of the Regulations.
However if the function was funded by the department or section then the Regulations would apply”.
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Posted By M Forbes
Pete loved that post,
And yes this whole issue is ridiculous, goes back to my risk assessment thread really. Health and Safety OTT where covering their ass is the main priority.
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Posted By Chris Jerman
Yes Pete spot on again. I do like your replies.
However, we must remember that this is an OPEN forum. Some of the people who ask question on here may have stumbled across us and thought "Oh, I bet these guys can help". They are not (well not all) in our business and it is our duty to spread a little knowledge. I know there is a debate at the moment about actually revealing who we are when we post. Perhaps there should be an indication at least that we are IOSH members.
So in answer to the question. There are no 'health and safety' laws that ban cakes in colleges and schools. But, the school can impose any internal rules that it likes - such as the wearing of jewelery etc and if it doesn't want cakes then that's their affair. But please don't use H&S as a reason. Food hygiene regulations etc are far more pertinent, but I would proffer that as long as these are for personal consumption and are not being offered for sale, for example, the ban on cakes is utter tosh and there aren't any laws that I know of that are designed to stop friends celebrating their birthdays in this way.
Has anyone got last year's figures for cake related fatalities by the way? Pete?
Chris
IOSH Member
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Posted By steven n
I cracked me tooth on a Mr Kiplings country slice last year, but I have never had any bad effects from me mums or girlfriend!
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Posted By MT
The person best placed to assist you with this would be your local EHO or Food Safety Authorised Office, who would be responsible for the inspection of food businesses in your area. Phone them up, present them with the scenario, and you should get a reasonable response which you can then take to the "powers that be" if you wish to challenge their in-house policy.
The problem is that, as other posters have said, they can apply a policy on this if they wish, BUT they (a) shouldn't blame it on health and safety and (b) should get their facts straight, as it wouldn't be an H&S legislation issue, but a food safety legislation issue.
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Posted By Tabs
Okay, time for me to sound thick ...
I did my intermediate hygiene certificate and got top marks before anyone asks ...
But apart from fresh cream problems (and that tastes disgusting long before it's any real problem I think, so you only get a small portion exposure), what food poisoning risks are there with cakes please? (ignore the exotic, and consider the normal homebake British varieties we normally get in the office).
I think most of the problems would come from mould after a cake has been left too long - this is never a problem in our office.
I think that people should put their names to these bans and should be open for questions ;-)
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Posted By Margia
By a happy coincidence, one of the people in my office brought in a tin of home-made cranberry muffins and proceeded to hand them round while I was actually reading this thread. I drew their attention to it and warned them that for their own good I felt duty-bound to confiscate the muffins. I was quite shocked when they all jeered at me and ate them regardless of the dangers.
Anyway I've just eaten mine. It was delicious and I feel quite well so far.
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Posted By Mitch
How can they enforce this ban?
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Posted By Crim
This is an excellent debate, I just wonder if a risk assessment has been produced - in writing and if so if it is suitable and sufficient?
The information required to produce such a risk assessment can only be provided by the people doing the baking and if they are willing to participate in the assessment and put their names to it the cakes should then be allowed.
If not please demand the written assessment and then challenge it!
Next question - does anyone ever challenge risk assessments that they think are OTT?
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Posted By Robert.
I disagree with "banning" home-made stuff, but I can see just a little bit of sense in it.
What home made product actually states "warning, may contain nuts" "gluten free",
"GM free", "contains dairy products", "eat by" , "use by", "made by". Some elements of social services have "banned" home made produce,but as a posting previously added "Who actually enforces it".
Example, lady makes birthday cake for service user, home made, not allowed, but the local baker, makes exactly the same cake, allowed.
or lady brings cake in made by her but claims got from local baker, no sell by, no wrapper, no made by, just a nice tasty cake to be enjoyed.
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Posted By Tabs
"Next question - does anyone ever challenge risk assessments that they think are OTT?"
All the time! I co-ordinate the H&S response of 36 different vendor companies within our environment, and thankfully they all now produce sensible risk assessments.
I am very keen on a pragmatic approach. We look at the serious in a serious way, and the rest just gets considered.
Makes my life a lot easier when I tell a vendor H&S person that I want fewer RA's but of a better standard - usually, they look pleased.
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Posted By anon1234
Whoever is banning this is going completely over the top in my view - assuming I have the facts right.
As far as I can tell, people are not being charged for the food, it is not part of a business function and no-one is being forced to have the cakes.
This sort of thing just gives H&S a bad name and quite frankly adds to the weight of opinion that the profession should be regulated to ensure only 'competent' advice is given.
If this advice was coming from one of my team I would be seriously concerned and would be looking at whether the correct competencies exist in that person and whetehr they should continue in such a role.
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Posted By Mitch
My pint on enforcement is tied to the challenging. In my child's school parents are asked not to provide food, snacks, lunch etc that contain nuts and children are not allowed to share food (don't you think allowed is a much more acceptable and less brutal word that banned?). This makes sense to me as a number of children have nut allergies and children are going through a continuous learning process to reach adulthood. When these rule are applied to adults that is when they should be challenged, if you can challenge them with confidence how can restrictions be reasonably enforced?
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Posted By Mitch
Getting excited on a Friday, nearing pub time! My last post should read my point not my pint!
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Posted By Alan Hoskins
I think that this issue should be referred to Mr Brown's new Risk and Regulation Advisory Council...
A
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Posted By Darren Kirk
We had a similar issue at Christmas, it was asked if home made food could be bought in as it had been for many years for all in the workplace too share and enjoy. Then some idiot (employee) asked if we had a food hygiene cert, after i had calmed down i rang Devon EHO department to confirm my thoughts, which they kindly did. IT IS NOT CONSIDERED TO BE A SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM. So you can cut your cake and eat it!
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Posted By Sally
Actually the official advice from the anaphylaxis society is that schools shouldn't ban parents from bringing in cakes etc containing nuts as it is counterproductive.
The biggest number of fatalities from peanut allergies is from teenagers who have spent their early childhood in a nut free environment and haven't learnt to take personal responsibility for everything they eat. So when they can no longer be protected they don't check carefully enough.
Any adult with dietary needs should be taking responsibility for checking that the food they eat is suitable not expecting their employer to do it for them.
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Posted By Adam Worth
Would I be allowed to bring in my homemade lunch? And as said above - what if I offer a colleague half of my sarnie or a biscuit? He may well be allergic to vegetarian food!
I might ban homemade cakes at work for a laugh - sod worrying about COMAH regs :)
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Posted By GARRY WIZZ
Regular as clock, another story that has been created by some H&S person who should be sacked on the spot for being humongestly in competent.
We need to teach people to challenge RA's.
Well meaning people are operating well out side thier skills base. They should be terminated before they do any more damage.
Garry
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Posted By John_Webster
I run the local Cub Scout pack, and 2 or 3 times a year we will have a party or other activity at which each child is asked to bring enough food for one person to eat. The various boxes of sausage rolls, sandwiches, pizza slices, cakes, crisps etc etc are pooled and they all tuck in.
We have a record, updated annually, of any special dietary requirements, allegies etc., but find that even at that age the kids are well aware of anything they should not eat and keen to take that responsibility for themselves (of course we monitor, just to be on the safe side).
What a shame if such activities had to end due to over-zealous interpretation of regulations and guidance.
Clearly we have to take care when providing food for children & vulnerable adults to eat, but as far as other adults at work are concerned, for the occasional party surely it is sufficient to ensure all are aware that such food has been prepared in premises and by people not subject to hygiene and food labelling regulations, and then leave the adult to be responsible for their OWN health & safety and decide for themselves whether or not they have sufficient information to safely consume it.
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Posted By Paul Duell
**Regular as clock, another story that has been created by some H&S person...**
My reading of the OP was that it was the "Powers that Be" making up a rule and blaming H&S, not necessarily an H&S person. Although I agree that if it WAS the college's "Competent Person" that made this rule, they've got a problem.
Having said that, on the strength of this thread I'm about to circulate a requirement that any cakes (whether home made or not) brought into the workplace must be submitted to me for safety testing before being distributed. Any confectionery products found not to comply with my rigorous standards will be destroyed in the POFDU (Paul's Oral Food Destruction Unit).
TGIF!
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Yes - lets' bear in mind that this is yet another use of the phrase "Due to health and safety" or "for health and safety reasons" trotted out as the ambiguous universal smoke screen by those in positions of seniority who can't be bothered to think or explain themselves properly. I'm really tired of this.
I'd like to see some Regulation that allows for on the spot fines whenever someone resorts to using this nonsense phrase.
I can confidently assert that if I were to attempt to bake a cake and bring it into work, no-one would eat it. The saugage rolls, banana loaf etc, brought in by other more competent colleagues (all working in the H&S office)however are always much appreciated.
My advice to A Hayden is to(with colleagues en masse) challenge this edict. What next? No shaking hands with visitors?
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Posted By Vicky Smith
For my 2p worth.
What type of H&S dept come up with this rubbish!!!!. No wonder the profession is a laughing stock at the moment when idiots are doing these sorts of RA's. I bet if you asked them something really serious they would not have the first clue in how to answer the question.
We must start allowing people to act on there on common sense on somethings.
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Posted By alan brotherton
Things could be a lot worse -- just imagine the terror which would be struck into the hearts of those banning the cakes if workmates wanted to share HOT food stuffs or beverages !!!
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