Posted By Chas I have known asbestos cement to be found as packing material around windows, used to level the frame when it was originally installed. Also found as cement infil panels and as part of the rope in sash cords on sash windows. You may also find it as rawlplug material where window fixings penetrate the surrounding wall. It is also worth noting that asbestos may be found in the form of debris in the wall cavity which becomes exposed once you take an old window out. Hope this helps.

Posted By Dave Wilson AIB, Cement, Mortar, Paint, Bitumen, Plastics and rubber, rope and string can all be found when doing this.

Posted By Steve j B Thanks all, So if asbestos is likely to be present all window fitters should have asbestos awareness training as standard. Do they then need level 2 training for non-licensed work? Thanks again Steve

Posted By Robert K Lewis Steve Just to add to the training issue - you should include this type of check in your competence assessment. If they have not already done the trainingh then one must question organisational competence. Also because the location is foreseeable then you do need to consider the implications for your Asbestos management plan. It may be that complete replacement may not be the best option wrt spread of fibres. I have had this problem in a 19 storey tower block. Replacement frames were re-designed to leave the rope seals in situ and tehn managed. Bob

Posted By Dave Wilson You are quite correct mate and I cannot agree more with your comments, there will be general building contractors out there today who will be knocking lumps out of this stuff.

Posted By Robert K Lewis Steve With Dave as usual on these issues. The regulations and the acop is as clear as anything produced by Whitehall. Maintenance and refurbishment operatives who can "foreseeably be exposed to" must be suitably trained - full stop. The fact this is domestic housing is not a relevant issue - the window fitters are at work and the regulations therfore apply. Not only that they are the regulation 4 duty holder whilst undertaking the work. Thus they must have a management plan in place. Simple isn't it!!!:-) Bob

Posted By Robert K Lewis But I do think the organisation ought to have a plan in place for those occasions when it needs the final top and tail because ACMs are found. Or even to set out a process if it is found. The time of discovery is not the best time to start. Yes the householder has no duty as such and this means contractors have to act more competently to prevent release or spread of fibres. The risk assessments will need to reflect the foreseeable risks. Bob

Posted By Dave Wilson Reg 4 Duty to Manage in Non domestic blah blah However Reg 5 Identification of the presence of asbestos An employer shall not undertake work in demolition, maintenance, or any other work which exposes or is liable to expose his employees to asbestos in respect of any premises unless either - (a) he has carried out a suitable and sufficient assessment as to whether asbestos, what type of asbestos, contained in what material and in what is present or is liable to be present in those premises; or (b) if there is doubt as to whether asbestos is present in those premises (i) assumes that asbestos is present, and that it is not chrysotile alone, and (ii) observes the applicable provisions of these Regulations. Identification of asbestos 49 As part of the management plan required by regulation 4, occupiers or owners of premises have an obligation to inform any person liable to disturb ACMs, including maintenance workers, about the presence and condition of such materials. 50 If work to be carried out is part of a larger project which attracts the requirements of the Construction (Design and Management) Regulations (CDM) 1994, as amended, the health and safety plan prepared by the planning supervisor should contain information on whether the materials contain asbestos and what type they are. 51 The employer should not simply rely on the information provided by other dutyholders unless the dutyholder can produce reasonable evidence to confirm the validity of the information such as survey details (eg a type 3 survey is required for major refurbishment and removal work covered by the CDM Regulations - see MDHS100 Surveying, sampling and assessment of asbestos-containing materials11) and provide information on the nature of suspect material (eg the analytical report and/or management plan for the area of work should be made available). 52 If appropriate information for the scope of work to be undertaken is not available or is not in a reliable form, then before carrying out any work involving the potential disturbance of the fabric of a building the employer should either: (a) establish whether the part of the building that is likely to be disturbed contains asbestos, and if so the type. This may require a survey and analysis of representative samples; or (b) assume that the part of the building being worked upon contains the most hazardous types of asbestos, crocidolite (commonly known as blue asbestos) or amosite (commonly known as brown asbestos) and take the precautions outlined in the Regulations and this ACOP for licensable work.

Posted By Steve j B Whilst not disagreeing with anything that's been said as i wholeheartedly agree with you, i do think in light of Reg 5 the 'competent' company would price themselves out of businesses if they had to survey every domestic premises they worked in whilst the 'cowboy' outfit wouldn't care about asbestos release and undercut the price. Even though this may potentially put the householder at risk from an asbestos release. Would the average 'man in the street' know the potential dangers of replacing a window?? Although i think it should be up to the compnay quoting for the job to bring this to the attention of the householder at the time of quoting Maybe that's why there are many companies who turn a blind eye or don't (won't) recognise the issue. Steve

Posted By Cas Steve Training and a splash of common sense are the order of the day. Also train he salesman and the bloke who measures up they should be the first ones to pick up on obvious indications that asi could be present. For the fitters - proceed with caution, down tools if something is suspect. Its the geezers fitting PVC soffits and fascias I feel sorry for, think they have been trained to spot AIB and asi cement?? Wouldnt worry too much about paint, mastic, rope on sash windows bitumen DPC etc. Draw up a generic risk assessment and use it as a basis for all jobs, make the guy on site complete and additional site specific risk assessment and give them a comprehensive safe system of work for fitting windows. Cas

Posted By Debbie H If the premises are multiple occupation, the communal areas should still have an asbestos register and management plan in place. This should include reference to any potential ACM's external to the building and thus should cover the windows, soffits and facias. If the work that you carry out is grouped together by location, it may be possible for us to help. We currently work for many glazing companies and you are right in your statement of how many guys on site could identify AIB, AC or millboard, or even be aware that some window putty contained asbestos. Debbie Hales www.asbestos-insulation.com

Posted By Debbie H Sorry Bruce and everyone else. Only just stumbled across this site at a very late time on a Sunday night and I thought I was helping, not selling. Each forum I visit seems to have different rules and preferences and I apologies for not being more subtle! I wouldn't even be looking if it wasn't for all the uproar on the news Friday night making my friends call in a major panic about the schools their kids go to. I will re-read the rules and try to behave in the future. Deb

Posted By Debbie H ITV news at 18.30 featured a piece on the teachers union calling for national survey of all schools. The reporter was at a school that should have sealed gaps to prevent exposure, but they had not done this. I was called by various friends, one of which said that the on-line blogging was getting out of hand and I should try to put something out there as a parent to help calm the panic, hence stumbling across so many new sites. The virgin blog is http://boards.virginmedi...arnofasbestosdanger.html I hope that I haven't broken the rules again! Deb

Posted By Dave Wilson See this today on HSE website http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2008/e08008.htm