Posted By TonyB
Hi Gus

Nice idea, but I can't see it working. To many H&S professionals out there.

Just one thing though. You mentioned a person you knew with loads of experience who didn't get an interview. The most probable reason for this would have been with the initial application form. The form is designed to deter and is part of the selection process! It is massive and during the sifting process (HSE Inspector Jobs are always over subscribed) any application form that has not been filled in 100% correct is instantly rejected - irrespective of the main contents. After that, the multiple further stages are designed to whittle down candidates by only selecting the best performers at each stage.

All the best,

TonyB.

Posted By db
I too know many who have been in HSE for a range of 3 to 20 years from H&S backgrounds so it's not changed that recently!

Posted By misskitty
A very interesting debate and one that will always devide opinion. Right, so here's mine:

To take the question at its basic meaning: No, because of the changing nature of the work environment (e.g. changes in technology), Legislation and good practice (i.e. lessons learned from investigations) there is so much to know and learn.

However, I would agree that most inspectors (I say most, not all IMO) ARE competent to do their job, which is inspecting, investigating, enforcing, advising, helping produce guidance etc.

A HSE inspector (I can't speak for the LAs) has to go through a wealth of initial training. Plus an intensely hard selection process, involving mechanical, mathematical and verbal reasoning tests; interview; group discussions; written scenarios; and, psychological test.

Then there is the on and off the job training, and working towards a level 5 NVQ (i.e. degree level) and Post-Graduate Diploma. There are regular on-the-job competence assessments from the Principal Inspector, Training Manager and Head of Operations.

Currently the training takes 4 years, although initial competence is fully assessed after 2 years and an Inspector is 're-banded' i.e. given full inspector status.

However even once this 4 year period is up, inspectors are constantly undergoing training - particularly relating to latest regulation changes and industry learning points (such as outcome of Buncefield investigation).

However - this doesn't mean inspectors are infallable, and they do miss things. But do rememeber the significant variety of industry and topics that have to be memorised and learnt. Every inspector has their strengths and weaknesses.

A long post - I do apologise, but hopefully adds to the discussion!

Posted By alan noble
LA's require their inspectors to achieve and demonstrate a set level of competence and experience before being 'set loose' on premises i.e. unaccompanied & unsupervised.

Inspectors are also expected to show continued professional development. Officers work is regularly benchmarked and checked by supervisor's to ensure consistency (you may choose to believe this or not)of enforcement.

In most LAs (I can only speak for Scotland)inspections are conducted by Environmental Health Officers (EHO's)and H&S may only be part of their duties. Some LA's have gone down the route of having specific single disciplines using Technical Officers e.g. H&S, Food. The jury is out as to which works best, the choice is often down to cost. Techs are paid less but you may need more to cover all LA EH disciplines. Unlike Techs, EHO's have to be professionally qualified which might be a competence factor or not.

LA inspectors are lead and guided by information from HSE/Local authorities Enforecment Liaison Committee which ensures consistency and comptence (you may choose to believe this or not).

This has been a wonderful meandering thread but to get back to TonyB's original post- the answer is yes (as far as it is practicable to be so).

I go back to my previous post the Management Regs. surely changed the nature of inspection and the type of inspector req'd.

Posted By John Fraser

To reiterate Alan Noble's recent response EHO's do have to undergo two year training after finishing the degree course at uni to become competent.

However I found it very difficult to get a local authority in the UK ( graduated in Scotland with a degree in environmental health several years ago) to take me on as a graduate EHO due to cutbacks in local government spending, and the fact that spending in local government was ring fenced in that money was only available for social workers and teachers at the time.

For me most government positions in environmental health / health and safety are good if you are lucky to get in as they will train you to become competent - but competition is very keen.

As I stated in an earlier message, I would class myself competent due to the fact that I am experienced and NEBOSH qualified in one facet of health and safety in the construction industry with maintenance of CPD. I wouldn't dream of becoming an EHO or HSE inspector now due to lack of opportunity.

John

Posted By TT
Just for information and to balance up the HSE sided comments so far - EHO recruitment process runs thus:

Part 1:
Environmental Health degree (BSc - 3 years, MSc. - 1 year) or Diploma (drawn out process often for those already working and is effectively the same). Academia broadly covers food safety, health & safety, public health, environmental protection, management systems & housing.

Part 2:
1 year of on the job training - often with a Local Authority but this is no longer necessary. Some now train with private industry or a mixture.

Part 3:
Completion of professional exams, professional interview and assessment of logbook demonstrating requirements/experience met in all the above fields from Part 1.


Then they try and get a job. No need for previous experience etc. (generally) but obviously an LA will likely recruit an EHO for a h&s post if they have more experience than the next one as would any employer!

Its true that health & safety is simply one part of their syllabus but assessment of management systems runs as a theme throughout and competencies in assessing a food management system are broadly similar to assessing a health & safety one etc.

I would, however, venture that the specifics of individual risk categories (e.g. guard X is a must for machine Y) are rarely learnt in the classroom so the quality of the advice/inspection you get will largely depend upon the experience of the EHO to that date - much like with an HSE inspector.

Posted By Chris Packham
Have had:
A:
Clients where the HSE inspector was insisting that they go "latex free", which is not what the HSE internal guidance states and which, I have been informed by senior HSE persons, is not their policy, and
B:
A client who was issued with an Improvement Notice requiring a change of glove from the glove that I had sourced for them and which was the corect glovefor the chemical in question to a glove that was totally unsuitable.

As the client in the latter case commented: Had he not had the knowledge about gloves from our collaboration he would have followed the Notice and could have put his employees at risk of damage to health. His view is now that all advice from HSE inspectors has to be cross checked.

I am not claiming that all inspectors are not competent. Far from it. Many that I know are extremely good at their job. The problem (as my client said) is knowing which is which. But isn't this true of all professionals? Just look at what has happened in the past in the medical profession.

It is an age old problem and one where I certainly would not claim to know the answer.

The problem, I think, can be summarised in the statement: "The danger arises when you don't know that you don't know." The problem is knowing when that applies.

Chris

Posted By Chris Packham
Alan

Two separate concerns here.

Firstly I had my client using butyl rubber gloves for acetone and the IN was to change to nitrile. If you check out the permeation breakthrough times you will see that nitrile is totally unsuitable for acetone. Incidentally, when the client sent my e-mail on this on to the local HSE office the IN was withdrawn.

Secondly, with the NRL gloves it isn't just one inspector, but seems to be fairly widespread. I did comment to HSE on this. They asked me for cases, but those involved within the NHS are reluctant to complain as they fear that this will cause them "even greater problems with the HSE".

If you check the NHS Plus website you will find a document on NRL produced as a result of an evidence based investigation by the Royal College of Physicians. This shows clearly that the problem of NRL allergy is confined to the powdered, high free protein single-use NRL gloves. This agrees with the German experience where in the state healthcare service NRL is the standard glove and, as the expert, Dr. Allmers, put it to me, "latex allergy is history".

I would also recommend a risk assessment and skin health surveillance anywhere where gloves are being worn, other than occasionally and for short periods. Occlusive gloves equate to wet work and can cause irritant contact dermatitis, irrespective of the type of glove material.

Chris

Posted By Garry Mcglaid
First things first,

Clarel, loving your work. Dont always agree with what you say, but love your passion.

I have said before on other threads so forgive me for repeating myself. In a previous life as a construction manager, i found the differing attitudes of the inspectors bewildering. When i progressed to the role of a safety professional i found my experiences jaw dropping at times.

I concur with posters who say the recruits have no safety experience, i have no evidence of this, only personal opinion based on experiences.

My management style has, and always will be risk management, i believe that at the end of the day we have to make money, so all risks must be managed "as far as is reasonably practicable"

I have had experiences with more senior, worldy wise, (polite words for older) inspectors who will converse and debate on site, on all manner of subjects. That approach i embrace, however more often than not now, i feel i am having to justify the systems of work we employ to inspectors who have no idea of the industry. I have worked in several business streams and have experienced this time and time again.

In a nutshell my answer to the original poser would be, as in any walk of life, it depends on the individual. Some competent, some not.

Posted By Chris Packham
Dave

What about the alternative? "But that was what the HSE inspector told us to do!"

Chris

Posted By TonyB
Hi Gus,

From my previous experience, this is how the HSE used to select 'targets' (and I believe they still do).

FOD inspectors (General Inspectors)

First they have a hit list. These are known previous 'poor performers'. This is termed the Cat A list. These site normally get about one inspection every year.

Second, some are selected due to RIDDOR reports and Complaints. The HSE investigate about 95% of complaints but far further accidents.

Third, they look for sites from a database that are operating within a specific area. The inspectors selects a number of these to cover a full days worth of inspection (2-3 sites a day).

HID (Chemical and other high risk sites)

COMAH sites have a 3-5 year inspection plan. Therefore these will be inspected every year at least once. Some of the larger Chemical sites can get 15-20 days of inspection a year!!!

Sub-COMAH sites (not COMAH but High Risk) should get a visit every year.

Other sites - same as for FOD sites.

There is a bit of a problem, which will get worse. If a site is not registered, then it won't be on the database. So unless a complaint is made, or the site has a RIDDOR and they report, the HSE will not know it exists so won't inspect it! Occasionally an inspector will spot a site not on the database and follow it up with an inspection.

As for assigning inspectors to sites

FOD, Some teams have a specialism (like Services) and they target these areas.

Construction has dedicated inspectors.

HID, all their inspectors receive extra training (2 years worth) to deal with their industries and COMAH.

Otherwise, its the luck of the draw!

Hope that answer your question.

TonyB