Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Admin  
#1 Posted : 13 May 2009 13:45:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By AJM
Hi,

Learned Friends,

I would like to canvas opinion on a scenario, I have my own thoughts but are interested in peoples thoughts.

If you have a Company that owns a building, lets say a building where there are numerous private doctors surgeries who run their own surgeries. You also have in this equation a facilities maintenance company that are in charge of the day to day running of all communal areas and sorting contractors etc. The Facilities maintenace company has a directly employed person on site but obviously the facilities maintenance company is directly employed by the company that owns the building.

So in this scenario where do people believe the health and safety responsibilities lay for the general health and safety of the building including visitors etc who will could obviously visiting any surgery.

Also i am thinking of things like the main HSE poster and the car park which is used for all people.

Thanks in advance for your views.

Alan
Admin  
#2 Posted : 13 May 2009 14:39:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By safetyamateur
OK, I'll bite.

Seems to me, AJM, this will depend on what could cause the problem; things connected to premises and things connected with the activities that go on in the premises.

Each individual tenant will have activities and the facilities people too. Sounds like the premises stuff is covered by the facilities people who, in turn, are covered by the landlord.

The HSE poster is just for employees so, if the tenants are individual employers, each employer needs at least one.

The carpark sounds like a landlord issue.
Admin  
#3 Posted : 13 May 2009 14:50:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Nick Patience
If I understand your scenario then Section 4 of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 applies.
This revolves around the facts of who is in control of what. Section 4(2) imposes a duty on the person (company) that is in control of the premises to take measures that are reasonable for a person in their position to take to ensure that access, egress and plant or substances provided for use are safe and without risks to health.

So in your example the building owner will have duties to the extent that they control the building and the facilities management company will have duties to the extent that they are contracted to.

There are decided cases on this aspect of the law one of these is Austin Rover Group v HM Inspector of Factories [1990]
Admin  
#4 Posted : 14 May 2009 09:31:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By AJM
Thank you very much thus far, very helpful replies.

The way i see it and please correct me if i am wrong is;

It is very much like an office block owned by a landflord who has various different floors with different business in.

For instance,The landlord should have a fire risk assessment for the whole building and each surgery should have their own fire risk assessment for their own individual surgeries.

The surgeries should also have their own HSE posters up for their employees they have and risk assessments etc for their individual hazardous tasks.

The only issue in this scenario is that although the Facilities maintenance company will be managing 90% of contractors and can set up systems accordingly. 10% will be run by the individual surgeries, IE.. Cleaners etc..

I understand that the co-operation, co-ordination aspect is very important here between all parties but surely somebody somehwere must be in charge of tieing all these things together i imagine this is the landlord.

What sort of assessments apart from Fire do people think the landlord should have in place?

I am looking at the car park as a must Vehicle/pedestrian interaction but what else? I am interested in views.

Regards

Alan
Admin  
#5 Posted : 14 May 2009 11:58:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By safetyamateur
Legionnela's a big one for the landlord, Alan.

Slips, trips in common areas. Security. Whatever the cleaners get up to. Not a real risk but one to be ready for is temperature.
Admin  
#6 Posted : 14 May 2009 12:08:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By RHOES
The Landlord should also have an asbestos management plan for the entire building
Admin  
#7 Posted : 14 May 2009 12:22:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Ron Hunter
A discussion with your insurers could well clarify some of these issues for you AJM. What they believe is of far more import than any of our opinions.
p.s. ONE Fire Risk Assessment should cover the premises - cooperation and coordination and all that!
p.p.s. there is no legal requirement to display any poster any where. The equivalent leaflet can be issued to employees
Admin  
#8 Posted : 18 May 2009 10:42:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By AJM
Thank you for the help guys, much appreciated. Its difficult sometimes pinning down where everything sits. But co-operation and co-ordination should be the order of the day i guess.

I just wonder where the general safety of the whole building lay, because all surgeries would run their own sections but there has to be a cenntral point for contractors etc, so its that responsibility i just need to pin down now.
Admin  
#9 Posted : 18 May 2009 10:49:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Paul Leadbetter
If the contractors are brought in by or on behalf of the landlord then they are responsible for making sure that the appropriate risk assessments and / or ssow are followed. If any of the doctors bring anyone in, then it is their responsibility.

Paul
Admin  
#10 Posted : 18 May 2009 11:53:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Rod D
AJM
Here is my opinion for what it is worth, the Landlord must undertake a Fire Risk Assessment (FRA) for the common parts and plant areas etc i.e. anywhere they have responsibility, if there are any Significant Findings, which may have an impact on any of the tenants then these must be communicated to the tenant concerned and tell them what you intend to do about it. Recommendations should be rectified within the given timescales.

The tenants must have a Fire Risk Assessment undertaken for their own demise and again they should communicate any Significant Findings to the Landlord or any tenant which it may have an impact on and also what they intend to do about it. Do not hold their FRA as in my opinion would have Vicarious Liability issues.

Also you should have a Fire Log Book; you will normally be responsible for the Fire Alarm, emergency lighting, fire extinguishers in the common parts etc. Also as Best Practice you should carry out two (2) fire drills annually. In addition you should provide the tenants with Fire Evacuation Procedures.
Landlord is responsible for the plant and lifts etc, an Asbestos Register and Management Plan if applicable, water treatment, Legionnela's, Chlorination etc.

If your Contractors are carrying out High Risk Activities such as working at height, hot works, work on electrical installations etc then they should be working under a Permit to Work System, completed copies should be submitted to the Landlord.
Cleaners should have their COSHH Detail such Risk Assessments and Safety Data Sheets held onsite.

With regards to Car Parks for premises I believe these are a Landlords issue, you may require traffic calming measures such as speed humps, speed signs. Road marking, such give way, if the Car Park is internal maximum head height, appropriate fire extinguishers, no smoking signage, and absorbent material for clearing up oil spills.

There are probably loads I have missed but I hope this is of some help.

Yours Aye,

Rod D

Admin  
#11 Posted : 18 May 2009 12:25:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By marcusblack
A pretty comprehensive overview by Rod. The first place to start however, should be the leases. This will define responsibilities for the various areas of the building. You may even have a lead tenant who is responsible for common areas instead of the landlord!

The usual situation will however, be as Rod outlines: common areas, plant and systems are normally the responsibility of the landlord (including external areas, car park etc.). Each internal demise will normally be the responsibility of the individual tenant. All will share the duty to co-operate and co-ordinate, usually lead by the landlord.

Contractors are the responsibility of the engaging party. The landlord cannot be held responsible for a contractor brought in by a tenant in their demise, it would be beyond his control.

Mark
Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.