Posted By John Mac Carthy Most inspections within premises either reveal too many or too few fire extinguishing media. What if the building occupier states they don't wish to have fire extinguishers, nor train their employees in safe use of fire extinguishers, as this implies a liability risk. They must leave the building only. A standard fire risk assessment will state that a control measure for a flammable substance or source of ignition is a fire extinguisher, but if the building responsible person says 'they are a liability' and they do not want them within the premises, then the control measure is void. How does one argue this point or assess the bare minimum to ensure adequate fire safety? An interesting question? Comments appreciated on this one. Thank you John

Posted By John Mac Carthy and if they still resist due to liability and training costs? Personally I think its a cop-out to not wish to pay for standard PPM and 'basic fire extinguisher training'. It is clearly a legal breach. Thank you Has anyone else had this problem before and short of informing the local fire officer how did you get around it?

Posted By martinw The reason that I was asking is that in those fire brigades/services which I have dealt with, some have really good policy units - fire safety, technical etc who are happy to give guidance without demanding who you work for etc. If you want I can give you details of a really good guy in London Fire Brigade Technical Enforcement group who has helped me no end. Or, you could go down the results of enforcement line: see the following from the Gov's own enforcement guide: http://www.communities.g...ance1enforcement2005.pdf 73. Fire-fighting equipment should be considered as a means of both prevention and protection. For example, preventing a small fire growing out of control and spreading beyond the area of origin, affecting the means of escape and posing a risk to relevant persons. It is likely therefore that some form of fire fighting equipment will be necessary in almost all cases. Hope that helps. If you want the other info let me know. Cheers Martin

Posted By TBC As far as I am aware the spirit of The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 is also about business continuity and reducing the impact on the business and neighbouring businesses as much as fire safety etc. So to leave the building to burn down is not the easy answer to not providing fire extinguishers or training. Can you see the insurance loss adjustor on this one - a small bin fire reduced the business to cinders -WHAT!

Posted By Colin Reeves John Swis' comment says that "the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate" - woolly wording so your next comment that it is a clear breach is not correct. I suspect that legally they are following the law by not having fire extinguishers so long as there is a robust evacuation method. However, I totally agree with the provision of extinguishers on two grounds. Firstly financial as mentioned by TBC - I would not like to try to convince an insurance assessor that a waste bin fire closed down the business!! Secondly, and more practically, how can you ensure that all employees can evacuate safely. There are almost certainly circumstances when a safe evacuation is not possible and I would not like to explain to an HSE inspector how an employee was trapped and subsequently died by said waste paper bin fire. There have been many similar threads in the past - with opinion very much split between "evacuate and do not fight" and "fight when appropriately trained as it is better for business continuity". In addition, there are places when evacuation is not practical (an aircraft in flight ....!!) Colin

Posted By TBC If the fire extinguisher is to just to aid escape - why are so many at the final exit?

Posted By Bob Shillabeer Many years ago I undertook training as a fire precautions manager which included the correct way to use a fire extinguisher, yes there is a right way and a wrong way. This depends on the type of fire it is used on and the type of extinguisher, For example a petrol fire show be tackled with a CO2 extinguisher, but they are noted for thier lack of cooling, they put the initial fire out but due to the temperature it can reignite so you never turn your back on the fire oe ratrher where the fire was and walk backwards away from it so it won't jump and bite you back. At the same time the trainer emphasised strongly that only very small fire should be tackled with a fire extinuishe generally nio large that a waste paper basket and then only if it is safe to do so, escape is the best option always. The training that individuals need is how and when it would be appropriate to use a fire extinguisher that is why so many companies decide not to train anyone but evacuate and leave it to the professional.