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#1 Posted : 21 October 2009 13:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By Blue Not sure about this one and would like some help if possible. A lawyer routinely parks a car in an area which is clearly for external escape next to steps. This denies rapid egress for another neighbouring business (a nursery) who would have about 3 feet of width between the car and a wall. They may have to carry children out too. The nursery have mentioned this but the lawyers want none of it and say they own the land. Car parking is very restricted and this is the reason they dont want to let go of the space - even though it's not designated as a "car park space" by lines. I wish to help the nursery but will have to quote some legalities - i.e HASWA S2 "safe egress", etc. The area is in Scotland. Can anyone help?
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#2 Posted : 21 October 2009 14:15:00(UTC)
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Posted By A Campbell Hi Blue, Who's the landlord or both buildings privately owned?
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#3 Posted : 21 October 2009 14:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By firerisk Contact your local Fire Authority and raise your concern as a complaint under the Fire Scotland Act, it is the Reg Reform Fire Safety Order in England and I believe Article 22 makes it an absolute duty for responsible persons (Duty Holders north of the border)to cooperate and coordinate in relation to the significant findings of each of their Fire Risk Assessments.So the Fire Scotland act 'Mirror' section would apply.Amongst others. Also 'if the offence (Blocked final exit) occurs due to the act or default of another person, that person is also liable' springs to mind. See what the Fire Bobbies response is. hope that helps some?
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#4 Posted : 21 October 2009 14:23:00(UTC)
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Posted By Blue Thanks for the responses. I believe both buildings will have the same landlord, so that is a good starting point. If no joy, then I can suggest stage two. Thanks again, B
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#5 Posted : 21 October 2009 14:37:00(UTC)
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Posted By GRK Charlton Let us know how they get on
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#6 Posted : 21 October 2009 14:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By David J Jones I would also suggest that both parties Fire Risk Assessments need to be looked at to see if this has been considered in either of them. If not then they quite clearly both need a serious review - if they exist of course! I'm sure your local Fire and Rescue guys will ask that question straight off.
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#7 Posted : 21 October 2009 15:49:00(UTC)
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Posted By Messy Shaw Be very careful about consulting the fire authority at the initial stages of this problem as the nursery could get served with a notice to improve their means of escape. This issue is important yes, but the MOE is not completely blocked so there is time to deal with this before resorting to consulting enforcing authorities. If this firm are lawyers, send them a letter detail the concerns and asking for a reply in a reasonable time limit. Throw a few Articles in to point them towards the law which applies and wait. Keep a record of all conversations and e-mails and take photos. As has been said, Article 22 cover co-peration A32 lists the offences and states: 32. —(1) It is an offence for any responsible person or any other person mentioned in article 5(3) to— (a) fail to comply with any requirement or prohibition imposed by articles 8 to 22 and 38 (fire safety duties) where that failure places one or more relevant persons at risk of death or serious injury in case of fire; If after a reasonable time, they've done nuffin, then talk to the fire authority and show your documentation to them I was an enforcing officer in a former life and have been to premises upon request of the occupiers with similar issues where their MOE has been blocked. My employer's legal team opted to issue the occupier (who asked for help) with an enforcement notice as hey have a duty to ensure the MOE. It's the easiest and cheapest option for an enforcing authority although morally it stinks. So my advice is do all you reasonably can before reporting it so when you do you can evidence you've done all you could.
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#8 Posted : 21 October 2009 16:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis You need to clarify control of this area so it unfortunately back to the lease time. I rather suspect that the landlord will not have assigned this area as it is not car parking and he will hold the responsibility for ensuring the MoE is clear, assuming it is an official MoE. The local newspapers are also very useful in shaming bullying employers/occupiers into accepting the moral case as well even if there are no legal grounds. A notice cannot be served on you if you do not control the area as you are not the duty holder - appeal any attempt by an enforcer to act in this contemptible manner. In fact if such bodies choose to act like this they should be prepared to be publicly named. Sorry to anyone who thinks I am OTT on this but I fell strongly after witnessing such actions elsewhere. Bob
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