Hi Shaun, thanks for the feedback. You confirm what most, if not all fire brigades say, I know Merseyside look at fire risk assessments and require employee training for extinguisher use.

Peter, The formal training / advise I recieved from Strathclyde Fire and Rescue Service and the Highland and Islands Fire and Rescue Service was equally unequivocal - DO train staff to use FE. To suggest that all staff are very poor at judging when a fire is out of control is perhaps a reflection on poor a training and development plan and a sweeping generalisation. We have a rolling programme of practical FE training for all staff and nominated persons to facilitate safe evacuation and carry out ongoing checks - remember that evacuation may not be possible without being able to competently use a FE. The Fire Safety (Scotland) Regs 2006 are quite clear on the requirements of fire safety training of which FE must be included. GC

It must be a post code thing then. Merseyside require staff to be trained in fire extinguisher use and would make that requirement when auditing the fire risk assessment.

GC I think you miss the point of my reference to "we non fire safety professionals". All very well getting people to practice using extinguishers at a training event (Incidentally HSE removed this practical training from the programme for the General Fire Procedures event that I attended in Lancs - an Inspector had got slightly singed at Moreton - as happens I think that this was not a sensible change to programme). ...but when the crunch happens, us "non fire safety professionals" may think it's a small fire when it's not. Hence the Glasgow fatality in 1978, and hence the advice I was given by Lancs in the 1980s. I don't think anything much has changed since except the reduced probability of the readily defined "small fire" in a waste paper bin - we don't even have these in our offices - communal recycling bins have replaced WPBs with even less chance of ignition. ...and when the crunch happens, it's ages since staff have been trained and they pick up the wrong extinguisher in the panic scenario. p

There is no way in which we could realistically train every member of our staff (a total of 2,500 located at five separate campuses). Our fire wardens receive training in the use of extinguishers and this is provided annually.

I agree to some extent Shaun, but our fire wardens are the most likely suspects who would actually know what to do in the circumstances. Otherwise, who do we choose? We do train some other roles, such as Accommodation Wardens, as the most likely source of any fires we experience are from within the kitchens in Student Halls... :-(

No Wizard Someone sounds the fire alarm, reception call the fire brigade, our fire co-ordinators and their deputies sweep their area and any toilets etc, and we all make an orderly way down to the designated place of safety where the co-ordinators report to our fire marshalls who control when the fire brigade say that we can return. Oh, and if someone needs to use a fire extinguisher to access a protected route, they should turn round and use their alternate route. We even deliberately block a staircase in the odd fire drill, to make people have to use an alternate route. P

Peter, you make it all sould so simple yet by your own words in an earlier post "...and when the crunch happens, it's ages since staff have been trained and they pick up the wrong extinguisher in the panic scenario" suggests that during panic people do not act "orderly" so your argument does not seem to add up. However, I do agree re blocking routes during fire drills as this is something I have done for many times and proves very effective in frustrating staff - wonder how that frustration would turn out in a real fire? As you intimated earlier sometimes 'I miss the point', but could you clarify that you do not recommend that staff are trained in the practical use of FE and if so, are FE only for use by fire fighters onsite, in your opinion? GC

akwatson - the figure of 2500 came directly from this statement which relates to employees?? GC

Peter I have trouble understanding where you are coming from. I assume you are talking about portable fire extinguishers when you say FFE. I can't understand why your risk assessment might say that you require extinguishers and then you decide it is inappropriate to train staff to use of them! I think you are misunderstanding the legislation and the words 'where appropriate'. In this case if portable fire extinguishers are provided then it must be appropriate to train staff to use them. And where it says 'where relevant'....if portable fire extinguishers are provided then surely it is relevant. Where the words 'where appropriate' and 'where relevant' have meaning are when the fire fighting equipment provided is not portable fire extinguishers or are not manually operated.

So if someone lights a candle you are going to stop work, call the fire brigade and evacuate the building?

Phil, All new staff have to attend a mandatory induction training which includes fire action response. Existing staff will either have been though a similar training event or have received such information by another means. What I said was that we could not realistically train all of our staff in use of fire extinguishers and in reality I do not consider this to be a requirement. Alan

To my mind the views concerning the provision of FFE in order to aid escape are complete nonsense, why otherwise do we bother with alternative means of escape, travel distance etc. The requirement to provide FFE and train personnel in the correct use of this equipment is dependent on the findings of the fire risk assessment and should consider: The dimensions and use of the premises, the equipment contained on the premises, the physical and chemical properties of the substances likely to be present and the maximum number of persons who may be present at any one time. If the FRA demonstrates that the premises is of a minimal dimension, without equipment or substances presenting a fire risk, then FFE is not required. If the FRA demonstrates otherwise, then FFE and training is required. It's not exactly rocket science now is it.

This thread clearly demonstrates why health and safety in this country is perceived to be in crisis. People on here are quite willing to completely ignore advise from the regulators. Incredible. GC

Firstly i hope you have all had a good break over the Easter period. I must admit i am quite surprised that this thread has caused so many different opinions on really a straight forward procedure, lets be honest fire safety has always been paramount in work since the early ages! However, i still havent had the final question answered, if a member of staff is trained in the use of extinguishers, how often do they need to complete refresher training? Sean

Coming to this fresh (there's only so much I can take at one time on forums!) I am concerned at the apparently entrenched positions and lack of analysis. Let me punt a few comments into the mix: Why is everyone so worried about flaming waste bins (moderator - I mean bins on fire...)? Talk to most experienced property managers and the problem isn't usually something bursting into flames right there for all to see, it's someone who smells smoke (or a detector that takes a hit). They have no idea where it exactly comes from, maybe it's someone heating oxtail soup, or peeling an orange under a detector head (yes, both real) or an exhaust fan in the toilets where the sealed for life bearing has come to the end of its life. The key point is that many fires are first detected by smoke, not flames. The HSE course Peter referred to that the HSE sadly ditched (I was there...) incorporated the best demonstration of smoke behaviour I know - being in the same room as a good going fire with a lecturer who knew how to work his audience. So maybe most comments in this strand miss the key point regarding initial detection. An old fire officer once told me that the main use of fire extinguishers was against WW2 firebombs, without which we would have had a very different view. Maybe a non PC view these days! Even so, there is a valid challenge as to why we provide them that is neither unprofessional nor unthinking. In the case of a research lab doing hairy things it would be a curious risk assessment that didn't indicate a need for first aid fire-fighting measures, but this approach is really very difficult to sustain in offices which are non-smoking, have reasonably modern IT equipment and anyway have RCDs on electrical supplies (not forgetting a plug one can pull out if the copier etc. starts smoking). Could I be controversial by suggesting that a better use of training time for fire safety would be on how to descend stairs without tripping than the use of a fire extinguisher? Oh and let me take a pot at another canard. Consistent enforcement. Fire officers even within a single authority don't give the same message, let alone between authorities. See many and assorted discussions elsewhere for evidence. So, going back to basics, what is our desired outcome in the event of a fire? It's everyone out safely on the opposite side of the road with a contingency plan ready to kick in. If along the way (as in the research lab example) someone has managed to deal with the cause of the fire, then that's a bonus. The means of escape etc. should be good enough for it all to happen. So, where should our training effort focus? We must be careful not to let extinguisher training divert our efforts. There's an argument for some key people being trained in extinguisher use (even if only a video plus orientation) in case this is needed to protect the process of escape but don't let it detract from our main efforts of getting everyone to understand why they need to get off their bahookeys, down the stairs and out into the rain. Through the fire doors that they haven't wedged open. Like now and it's not a false alarm (oh that overworked phrase "human factors...!). Blue touchpaper lit.. Jim