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martinw  
#41 Posted : 24 August 2010 19:34:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
martinw

It makes a difference personally to me. At the risk of sounding facetious, my ginger hair and freckled pale skin turns me pink after a short period of time in sunshine which is not particularly strong, which means the need for me to cover up and/or wear sun cream is not an option. I would rather not have to fork out for factor 30. Nor would I wish to be the only one not covered in long sleeve clothes on the hottest day of the year when everyone else is OK. However, life isn't like that. It is a pain every time I go on holiday, and luckily I work inside buildings rather than outside. I would have to work very differently if I worked on site. I can't even have the sunroof open for very long. But it would be something that I would consider as my responsibility to sort out as my employer is not responsible for my hair colour or freckles.
Canopener  
#42 Posted : 24 August 2010 20:23:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

I wonder if Daily Mail journalists read this forum? Just being a little mischievous! I also wonder if it actually makes any difference whether sunblock/cream is PPE or just a precaution or otherwise? I fear not!
chris.packham  
#43 Posted : 24 August 2010 22:07:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Occupational exposure to non-artificial UV-light and non-melanocytic skin cancer - a systematic review concerning a new occupational disease Authors: Schmitt, Jochen1; Diepgen, Thomas2; Bauer, Andrea1 Source: Journal der Deutschen Dermatologischen Gesellschaft, Volume 8, Number 4, April 2010 , pp. 250-263(14) Publisher: Wiley-Blackwell Conclusions: The association between occupational UV exposure and SCC is well and consistently documented epidemiologically (approximately 2-fold increased risk), so that the criteria for a new occupational disease are fulfilled. The association with BCC is unclear due to significant methodological limitations in the published studies. SCC = squamous cell carcinoma BCC = basal cell carcinoma Chris
Corfield35303  
#44 Posted : 25 August 2010 10:39:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Corfield35303

Mick Noonan wrote:
I think this is getting rediculous. The sun (and therefore sunburn) is not an occupational hazard, it's an every day of your life hazard. The fact that it still happens to be there while we're at work is beside the point (although fortunate). I've been around for a good few years now and have never resorted to covering my head or face from the sun, in fact my ability to see is based entirely on the fact that I don't cover my face. My point, then, is that this is a non-issue. We cannot prove a link. If we could, would we reccomend that everyone work nights? Now there's one for the 'elf 'n' safety brigade... To answer your question then, no it's not PPE, however, a clever employer would provide the suncream to avoid unnecessary sick-leave and loss of productivity. I've seen barrier creams provided on construction sites for no reason other than good sense, and why not.
I agree it is merely a sensible thing to do (in some but not all cases, it is a non-issue), clearly it is an issue to some or people wouldnt be discussing it here. I've worked in 1 business in the UK (well the military) where we provided suncream, and 1 construction/logistics company in the middle east. In both cases, as you suggest, we werent immediately thinking of claims, fines, prosecution, long-term cancer risks etc - we were merely trying to keep people healthy and productive at work. The time we spent on this was minimal (proportianate), we asked people to order it, and told people it was available and should use it to avoid getting sunburnt, I've probably spent more time typing this out than I have spent worrying about it over the previous 20 years, but it isnt a non-issue as I have had to deal with people being absent from work for being sunburnt. Hmm possibly is a non-issue given the current state of the weather though.
Phil John  
#45 Posted : 25 August 2010 15:23:52(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phil John

Well Guys I believe I have all the relevant information to implement my controls. The only Operatives who will receive Sun Block will be Roofers in the warmer months. This will be provided for Face, Neck and hands as all other areas will be covered. The other Operatives do not warrant Sun Block as they do not work outside to the extent as what the Roofers do. Thank you for the responsive, I have read ALL of them and it doesn't matter if I agree or disagree with the comments the response was great. Thank you all Regards Phil
pete48  
#46 Posted : 25 August 2010 16:34:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

Wasn't UV radiation from natural sources excluded from the EU directive precisely because of the difficulty in making an assessment of risk of such matters? Still leaves the duty of care but with all the evidential issues that attach. Difficult for both sides of any discussion. If one accepts that this is an area that requires control measures then the prudent would first consider primary controls such as reorganising work outside peak UV hours and then secondary controls such as protective clothing, sunscreen, hats and sunglasses to all workers identified as requiring protection. For example, how many UK employers consider providing sun glasses alongside the sun cream decision? Or perhaps that is another topic? p48
peter gotch  
#47 Posted : 25 August 2010 17:21:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Mick When I went on holiday in Tuscany, lots of the scaffolds had physical textile protection particularly at the top to provide the workers with some shade.
k.stone877  
#48 Posted : 26 August 2010 10:13:37(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
k.stone877

Is sun cream/block so very different from barrier cream in terms of company supplying???
Seamusosullivan  
#49 Posted : 26 August 2010 10:58:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Seamusosullivan

Working in intense sun has risks, it is reported that the risks are increasing, due to the depilation of the Ozone layer. It could be suggested that it is a new hazard in some workplaces, and therefore should be addressed. When I attended a talk given by a doctor a few months ago, it was mentioned that yes we humans need Vit D; we get Vit D from the sun, oily fish, and supplements. It was pointed out that the sun causes melanoma (skin cancer), which kills! lack of vit D, does not kill but is associated with many serious problems. The doctor (consultant) said the use of sun protection with factor 30 was advisable when outdoors all the time, and not just when the sun is shining. Everyone seems to agree exposure to the sun is dangerous; the stumbling block seems to be who supplies and pays for the sun protection. Who pays for protection when an employee is forced to work in other unfavourable environments?, e.g. extreme cold, where there are chemicals etc.?
Mick Noonan  
#50 Posted : 26 August 2010 11:31:16(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mick Noonan

Working in dalight: Sunburn. Working at night: Visual Impairment, Cold. Working in the rain: Getting wet, acid rain, pneumonia. I could go on, but I think you get the point. We have to step in somewhere and say that it's not reasonably practicable to hold the employer responsible given that the issue/hazard exists wether the person is working or not. If working nights (it's cold) you'll make sure that you have warm clothing on. I wouldn't expect that an employee would come to work in a t-shirt and ask where his/her thermals were.
Steve e ashton  
#51 Posted : 26 August 2010 12:43:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

Mick: you say "the issue/hazard exists whether the person is working or not"... So..an employee goes to rock concerts twice a week at 120dB, and rides a motorcycle at weekends estimated at 95dB - personal choice. The risk of noise induced hearing loss exists whether the person is working or not. So you would expect the worker to come to work at 100dB for eight hours a day with his own ear plugs????? Would the noise regs agree? At home, he smokes 40 cigarettes day - so do you believe it's their own lookout if they smokoe whilst handling lead scrap in the yard? Would the lead regs agree? Or perhaps he's got a home workshop with unguarded machines - so its ok to let him work on unguarded machines at work? I could go on (and on, and on...) but you get the point. Seriously? Would you? And as for "If working nights (it's cold) you'll make sure that you have warm clothing on.".. Regardless of the definition of PPE on Reg 2.i of the Regs? "All equipment (including clothing affording protection against the weather)"... its cold weather - the guy needs thermals, but you don't supply them? 'scuse me guv, but I think I got a claim for me pneumonia and frostbite... Skin cancer kills people. It is caused by exposure to the sun. Some people work long hours outdoors under the sun. HSE have issued information (guidance so far...) the problem is getting worse (whether by ozone depletion or otherwise...).... Do you honestly think it's OK to rely on individuals protecting themselves? If so - your interpretation of what is 'so far as is reasonably practicable' is different from my own. Must remember to take off my mr grumpy hat before I go home tonight. Steve
grim72  
#52 Posted : 26 August 2010 13:03:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
grim72

ffion wrote:
Well Guys I believe I have all the relevant information to implement my controls. The only Operatives who will receive Sun Block will be Roofers in the warmer months. This will be provided for Face, Neck and hands as all other areas will be covered. The other Operatives do not warrant Sun Block as they do not work outside to the extent as what the Roofers do. Thank you for the responsive, I have read ALL of them and it doesn't matter if I agree or disagree with the comments the response was great.
Of course if they are putting suncream on their hands and using tools on the roofs, you mihgt be increasing the risk of the tool slipping out of their hands ;-)
sean  
#53 Posted : 26 August 2010 13:11:01(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

As stated earlier in this subject, barrier cream is normally supplied to help with skin care, why not supply sunscreen? It is for exactly the same reason.
chris.packham  
#54 Posted : 26 August 2010 13:31:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Sean May I point out that the HSE no longer recommend the use of so-called 'barrier cream' as protection. The BOHRF evidence based study also concluded that these products should not be used for this purpose. Several studies have also shown increased skin absorption of the very substance that the cream is supposed to be protecting against compared with untreated skin. Chris
sean  
#55 Posted : 26 August 2010 13:36:37(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

I bow to your expertise Chris, it is many years since i worked on site.
Mick Noonan  
#56 Posted : 26 August 2010 14:12:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mick Noonan

Steve, I really don’t think you are seeing my point. The issues you’ve raised; rock concerts, motorbikes, cigarettes, lead scrap, unguarded machines etc., are in no way comparable with what I’m trying to discuss. The above are human constructs and either we choose to engage with them ourselves or we are invited to by our employer. We have no such choice where the sun is concerned, the employer didn’t put it there. A man sues his employer for work related back pain and gets caught putting the bins out. I think we’re all familiar with this scenario. Now, how about an individual trying the same thing for work related sunburn/skin cancer (instead of back pain). Would a picture of this individual on a sun-bed be sufficient to throw the case out? How about sitting in the garden on a sunny day? I don’t mean to be flippant here, however, I do believe that we as individuals/employees have a responsibility to come to work prepared (SFARP). P.S. Chris, can you provide a link to this study/studies, or PM me.
chris.packham  
#57 Posted : 26 August 2010 15:48:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Mick You will find the BOHRF (British Occupational Health Research Foundation) study at: http://www.bohrf.org.uk/projects/dermatitis.html When reading this bear in mind that this was produced using the SIGN (Scottish Intercollegiate Guidance Network) method for evaluating published papers. Having been involved in a similar study for the Royal Collegel of Physicians using this method my view is that whilst it is excellent in one way it does exclude a great deal of experiential evidence and thus limits its scope. This is not to say that it is not an excellent document, but I feel that there is a great deal that can be added to its conclusions that would enhance the guidance that it provides. Chris
Roly  
#58 Posted : 26 August 2010 16:39:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Roly

In response to martinw's post and his hair colour and freckles, has you tried P20 once a day protection. I use this and find it very effective. I know a lot of people with fair skin who are out in the sun all day use it. Have a look at http://www.p20.co.uk/ or google P20 to find discussion on it Roly
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