Rank: New forum user 
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Has anyone seen the latest attempts to highlight elf and safety, it seems the media are off their high horse, well maybe not so high:) just in case. Its now the job of the Tory Party, see the latest extract from yesterday.......I know what I would do with a firework but as IOSH is A political I best not say.
The contentious issue has now been raised at Prime Minister's Questions as concerned parliamentarians seek guidance on the Government's position.
Tory Michael Ellis said: "Are you as concerned as I am about the absurd health and safety legislation that's reached such dizzy heights in this country that the chief executive of Sainsbury's told me last week?
"That Christmas crackers are now categorised as Category 1 fireworks and cannot be sold to anyone under the age of 16 without the danger of a six-month sentence of imprisonment?
Mr Ellis then asked: "Will you put a firework up their health and safety legislation?"
David Cameron replied: "That would give me enormous pleasure and I look forward to doing so."
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Have you seen the warnings printed on crackers? Just have a look.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Since when has firework clasification and their sale to the under 16s come under H&S legislation? I must have missed something!
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Rank: New forum user
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It just shows they have not got a clue what is H&S legislation and what is not, I am all for IOSH taking the lead on changing perception but when we get comments like this still being made are we getting anywhere
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Rank: Super forum user
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Are there any laws preventing me from taking the streamers out of party poppers and replacing them with custard? ;-)
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Rank: Super forum user
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I think what people in H&S need to get their heads round is the fact that just because something does not 'come under' health and safety legislation that does not mean that it isn't perecived as a health and safety issue. In this example fireworks are not supposed to be sold to anyone under 16yrs in the interests of safety. Therefore as far as the public is concerned (or anyone outside of the field of H&S) this is a health and safety issue and the result of health and safety legislation.
Yes, all or most, of us in H&S would agree that this situation is ludicrous and know that it does not come under the remit of H&S legislation that we deal with on daily basis. But nevertheless it does fall under the H&S banner. Therefore the reality is that we are going to take the flak for this and other things that have nothing to do with our daily job roles but do fall under the health and safety banner, making us the targets for ridicule. You can sort of understand why as far as the public is concerned this is H&S legislation's fault becuase they don't understand and don't want to uderstand the finer details of the law. They just see the consequences of some piece or other legislation and blame it on health and safety. In effect they're are not wrong. It is health and safety just not what we percieve as health and safety.
Not fair but then who said life was.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Perhaps I am naive or mistaken, but I thought that the law that we work with is the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974. Note "at Work".
I agree that fireworks are a health and safety issue, but unless you are working with them, not under HASAWA but, presumably, under some other legislation.
Isn't this the problem? We are primarily concerned with people at work or affected by others' work, yet we get tarred with the health and safety brush on issues that are nothing to do with work. What is IOSH doing to correct this general misconception among the public at large, but also the media and our politicians?
Chris
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Rank: New forum user
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Chris
I think the point you make is very valid, this was not the general public making assumptions it was a member of parliament and the prime minister of this country.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Does anyone have a tree in the office? If so are there any crackers of the tree? (and I don't mean the ladies or gentlemen).
Crackers in a workplace then it is "at work".
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Rank: Super forum user
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PhilTye wrote:Chris
I think the point you make is very valid, this was not the general public making assumptions it was a member of parliament and the prime minister of this country.
But you are missing the point. Ministers and public don't blame the HSWA they blame health and safety legislation. Meaning any legislation that incorporates health and safety issues.
You cannot expect those outside the profession to distinguish the two. That is an unrealistic expectation.
Can you distinguish legislation from all other professions? I can't. I'm sure I proabably have a moan about certain bits of legislation and misdirect my moans.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Was the ban on selling fireworks to the under 16's introduced on the grounds of safety?
Or was it introduced in an attempt to reduce their improper use.
I suspect the former was used as an excuse for achieving the latter.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Fireworks Legislation is made under the Consumer Protection Act. Categorisation of Fireworks is as given in BS7114. Caps, throwdowns, part poppers and Christmas Crackers have been classed as Category 1 for as long as I can remember, and debate around deregulating them has gone on for as long. Things may have changed since I last dealt with these issues.
I trust that anyone on the Forum who can identify the MP as theirs will write to them and take them to task on this.
I look forward to Mr Cameron's approach to designing the terms of reference for a review Consumer Protection Legislation in the UK.
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Rank: Super forum user
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It’s easy Ron, get one of your chums from your political party, who knows nothing about the subject matter, pay them lots of dosh to produce an inaccurate report and publicise it!
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Rank: Forum user
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Got to agree with Clairel.
Although this doesn't fall within HASAWA, it is still 'safety' and therefore will inevitably come under the Elf & Safety Banner. The same issue can often come up when discussing food safety or road safety topics with "This isn't Health and Safety" being the regular cry from the forums.
Yes this is a forum for OCCUPATIONAL Health and Safety but we need to be careful of putting ourself on a separate pedestal from other safety issues, being blinkered towards just HASAWA. The public, understandedly can't make this separation.
Unless you're extremely lucky, and work in a massive organisation with its own compliance department, advising on other legislation with safety related outcomes (e.g. Consumer Protection, Road Traffic Act) is part of the job.
..and many would argue it should be.
Ian
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Rank: Super forum user
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Clairel
Given that a fair proportion of our MPs are lawyers, why not?
These are the people who agree new legislation. If they cannot distinguish between different individual pieces of legislation what are we doing allowing them to pass laws? Most of them will have paid researchers working for them. Is it unreasonable to expect them to be able to ensure they have the correct facts?
Chris
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Quote "Crackers in a workplace..."--said Chris B.
That just about sums it up. Best sort of ppe for these occupational risks at this time of the year is to get dressed up in a red suit with white reindeer fur trims and large fur lined boots. Ruddy cheeks and white beard are optional but they do help re-inforce the sterotype,
politics is politics!
p48
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Rank: Super forum user
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But then the players in the House aren't concerned at all about the "correct facts", rather with the odd planted or staged question or early-day motion which serves to keep alive the invention of the "elf'n'safety" bogeyman.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Refer to the HSE rebuttal of a couple of similar news at:-
"HSE refutes Christmas cracker ban claim" dated November 9, 2010
HSE Chief Inspector of Explosives Neil Morton writes in response to Daily Mail article “Christmas crackers!: Six-year-old girl turned away from till because of rules banning the sale of ‘explosives’ to children” and Daily Express article “Shop assistant stops girl, 6, from buying ‘explosive’ christmas crackers”
http://news.hse.gov.uk/2...stmas-cracker-ban-claim/
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Rank: Forum user
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Very poor reporting by both of these organs of misinformation. Both lead the reader to assume that the poor lass was in the way of finishing up with a record, a fine or a custodial sentence (or both). In fact, the offence is to supply explosive devices to someone 'who is not a person with specialist knowledge'. About time shop assistants (and red top reporters) got adequate training.
What is interesting is that the legislation quoted came into effect in August this year, presumably sneaking in under Lord Young's radar.
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Rank: Forum user
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Someone suggested that this legislation was to prevent "improper use" of crackers. Can anyone suggest such an "improper use'" ? (by definition such use must constitute a significant risk)
Merv
or should I save this for friday ?
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Rank: Super forum user
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merv wrote:Someone suggested that this legislation was to prevent "improper use" of crackers. Can anyone suggest such an "improper use'" ? (by definition such use must constitute a significant risk)
Merv
or should I save this for friday ?
Hi Merv,
I was reffering to the improper use of fireworks.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Safety Smurf wrote:
Hi Merv,
I was reffering to the improper use of fireworks.
I think, perhaps, so was Merv.
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Rank: Forum user
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merv wrote:Someone suggested that this legislation was to prevent "improper use" of crackers. Can anyone suggest such an "improper use'" ? (by definition such use must constitute a significant risk)
Merv
or should I save this for friday ?
Its Friday :-)......Let me start.........Fire Starters for the BBQ ;-)
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Rank: Super forum user
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Surely the jokes are more dangerous than the snaps? ;-)
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Rank: Super forum user 
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I thought they came under 'explosives'. Are fire works a health and safety issue. Walking appears to be a H&S issue as does climbing stairs, making tea, using a pen , in case you poke yourself in the eye. All sorts of things are classed as H&S. Why do you continually wind yourselves up about it. We'll never be left to deal with real issues until the government sit up and realise it's not H&S legislation that needs to be changed it's the solicitors who miss-interest the legislation to their own ends.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Rank: Guest
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THE PYROTECHNIC ARTICLES (SAFETY) REGULATIONS 2010 (which implement EU Directive 2007/23) say “No person shall supply a category 1 firework to any person under the age of sixteen years”. Category 1 is “a category of fireworks which present a very low hazard and negligible noise level and which are intended for use in confined areas, including fireworks which are intended for use inside domestic buildings”. It includes Christmas Crackers.
As said in posts above it’s not occupational H&S but it is H&S. Does seem to be a bit nannying. Seems reasonable to suggest it may be over the top (even if the MP was just playing politics). Of course a commons committee scrutinised it before it was introduced; that might have been the time to question it.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Barnaby,
I've not read it but I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark. Does this mean you now have to be 16 to buy caps for cap gun?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Smurf,
The answer to that is no:
From 4 July 2010
The minimum age limit for supply of category 1 fireworks is 16 years (see regulation 15(2)). Christmas crackers fall within category 1, among other low hazard, low noise fireworks. The Regulations do not however apply to toy percussion caps for toy guns etc.
The following may be of interest:
http://www.dius.gov.uk/a...regulations-guidance.pdf
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Rank: Super forum user 
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The original Express article stated the facts quite correctly. Neil Morton, HSE Chief Inspector of Explosives was totally wrong in his rebuttal. A sad state of affairs when the Daily Express has more knowledge and is more accurate than an HSE Chief Inspector in respect of safety regulations!
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Rank: Super forum user
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All seems a bit blown out of proportion to me.
When was the last time you saw anybody sixteen or under buying crackers? Far more exciting thing to spend your hard earned money on.
This issue may affect a handful of people in reality, so why support the media hype by stoking the fire?
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Rank: Forum user
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My previous post was pulled, apologies to mods.
I have to disagree with some of the comments here, the law that is causing the issue is a consumer supply and sales piece of legislation not a Health and Safety one.
Smoking is dangerous to peoples Health and Safety yet the legislation covering them is not one of H&S. Ultimately H&S legislation is about the workplace.
The storage of fireworks in a shop would come under Health and Safety Legislation, who they are sold to and the penalties for a breach is certainly not.
Unfortunately certain politicians and public officials have joined the media 'elf and safety' bashing so we will have to put up with some of these silly comments in parliament for a while yet.
It would be nice if someone from the political scope would stand up and make a reasoned argument against some of these attacks.... we live in hope.
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Rank: Forum user
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Redken,
I don't think he was wrong in his rebuttal. HSE are responsible for enforcing the manufacture of said items, but not for the selling if them. That is down to Trading Standards / Weights & Measures or whatever they call themselves now.
Still Health and Safety though, check out the first line of the regulations....
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Rank: Super forum user
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Having had a quick look through the EU Directive, nowhere can I see Christmas Crackers mentioned. There is a lot of discussion about fireworks, however. The UK's THE PYROTECHNIC ARTICLES (SAFETY) REGULATIONS 2010 may specify christmas crackers, but this is typical of the UK, which tends to expand on the original Directive when implementing this into our own legislation.
Perhaps this is not surprising, since crackers are not something commonly found in mainland Europe. At least, I have never seen them being sold there and when I took some to colleagues in Germany they were both surprised and delighted and I receive repeated requests when travelling there towards the end of the year "not to forget the crackers as we cannot get them here".
Could this be another case of overprescriptive legislation in the U.K.?
Chris
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Rank: Guest
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Chris.Packham wrote:Having had a quick look through the EU Directive, nowhere can I see Christmas Crackers mentioned. There is a lot of discussion about fireworks, however. The UK's THE PYROTECHNIC ARTICLES (SAFETY) REGULATIONS 2010 may specify christmas crackers, but this is typical of the UK, which tends to expand on the original Directive when implementing this into our own legislation.
snip - - -
Could this be another case of overprescriptive legislation in the U.K.?
Chris
I don’t think the regs mention Christmas crackers either, though the guidance does. The categories 1,2,3&4 are defined in BS 7114-1:1988*. Mind, “caps”, which as stated above, are excluded from the age of supply requirements by the guidance, are also included in cat 1. Seems odd to my layman’s eye that crackers weren’t also excluded. Still, they went through extensive consultation.
* “BS 7114 has been prepared in order to specify certain basic requirements for the
construction and performance of fireworks (as well as describing an associated
classification system and methods of test) which will help to ensure that the risks
of injury to users, onlookers and the public in general and of damage to property
are minimized”. Ie not for determining age of supply.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Schedule 1 of the regs states ' Catagory 1 is a category of fireworks which present a very low hazard and negligible noise level and which are intended for use in confined spaces, including fireworks which are intended for use inside domestic premises'. It depends on the term fireworks does this include sparklers if so the regs do apply and the only legal limit on sparklers is the minimum age to buy them. I know I won't let my grandsons or grandaughter to purchase them on thier own so it makes no difference to many people who are like minded. There are some shopkeepers who will break the law and sell fireworks to underage children, but then most of them are not interested in sparklers.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Off on the wrong track there I was saying about sparklers, It is Saturday and just put the xmas lights up outside, tired now. What I meant to talk about is children don't generally buy Christmas Crackers, they leave that to the older people so I can't see this being a major factor in the selling of crackers. But, will apply to sparklersd as well?
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Rank: Forum user
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Safety Smurf wrote:Are there any laws preventing me from taking the streamers out of party poppers and replacing them with custard? ;-)
Good choice! custard also falls into hazardous goods (the powder anyway) and is partly controlled by HSE (Explosives Directorate)
Try sprinkling some on your gas cooker or better still NOT...
We used to add custard powder to some special effects to make a darker flame so that film and TV cameras could see it.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Guitarman1 wrote:Safety Smurf wrote:Are there any laws preventing me from taking the streamers out of party poppers and replacing them with custard? ;-)
Good choice! custard also falls into hazardous goods (the powder anyway) and is partly controlled by HSE (Explosives Directorate)
Try sprinkling some on your gas cooker or better still NOT...
We used to add custard powder to some special effects to make a darker flame so that film and TV cameras could see it.
I was thinking more along the lines of slapstick comedy and covering someone with wet custard rather party tricks for extremists ;-)
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Rank: Super forum user
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Bob, the Regs and BS do apply to sparklers which are required to have additional warnings on the packet about (inter alia) not allowing under 5's to hold lit sparklers. This is of course true "consumer protection" stuff, much like age warnings on toys and DVDs etc. which many choose to ignore.
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