Posted By Robert Woods I have worked as a contractor for some very large companies and the best system I have come across is the clock card one. This is not popular with workers or contractors who are wanting to {how do you put this politely] add an extra hour to a job. As long as the cards are never used as a tool to dicipline people for this sort of offence [use the cctv evidence instead] then people soon accept them. If the above is done by a swipe card system which is kept on the person then I can see the weakness, but if the cards are swiped and left in a holder which can be eaisily lifted from the wall like a traditional paper clock card then there should be no problem unless the system is inadequately supervised. Give this job to a good security guard and there will be no problems.

Posted By Jay Joshi Is the purpose to ensure that everybody has been evacuated in case of a fire?--and informing of the status to the fire brigade personnel--that is the first thing they want to know in case of real fires. An effective fail-safe sytem is to complement any rollcall system with team of fire-wardens who would physically ensure that ALL areas under their jurisdiction have been evacuated and report tthis to the Fire Safety manager/co-ordinator.

Posted By Jayne Freeman I set up a roll call system, whereby each department had a form listing the names of all those in that particular department. We split this into 16 areas, covering some 180 employees. Opposite each name had 5 boxes representing the week days. Someone was then made responsible for completing the form each day and for maintaining it throughout that day. When evacuation procedures were initiated, the person responsible would take the roll call form and report to the warden in charge. At a glance they would be able to see who was in or out of the building. This also provided a written record for any visiting Inspectors or Fire Officers. This system has worked well for the company, but it does depend on the competency of the nominated person completing the forms.

Posted By Paul Huber I am about to open a can of worms and say something really radical. I have had personal experience of fire in large building. I do not believe there are any roll call systems, etc that are worth the time spend developing them. They are great for fire drills, give a nice comfortable feeling that you have everything under control. In a real fire however, there are a number of significant problems: 1) The time taken to carry out the process is prohibitive, think back to Tuesday this week, how effective would a roll call have been? 2) Card swipe systems are ok but it will take time to print out a full listing for a large office about ten minutes per thousand people. Then you have to do something with the data, at least another hour. So you discover that there may be someone left in the smoldering rubble, if (and it's a big if) they followed the access control procedures in the first place. Many high tech companies have their visitors swiped in by staff or security, this also happens with employees who have forgotten their cards. As for visitor books can you guarantee that ALL visitors sign out? 3) The T card system is simple (that is good) but it is only practicable for relatively small numbers. And again it relies heavily on people complying with the rules. 4) What is the purpose of fire wardens? They will search the sections of the building where there are no fires. They cannot go into the area where the fire is. So what use are they, all you will be able to tell the rescue services is that in the safe areas there are no people but you don't know about the area close to the fire. The point I am trying to get across is that the planning must be for a real fire not a drill. In a real fire unless you can be 100% certain that there is no one in the building then you must assume that there may be. All methods for checking people are not fail safe and they all have significant weaknesses. You will never be able to use one of these systems to be 100% certain in anything other than very small buildings. I believe that the time should be spent on instilling strict adherence to fire evacuation, with strict discipline for those who ignore alarms. I suppose you could install a sophisticated computerised sytem that would monitor people in all parts of the building but even then I would guarantee that an employee would find a way around the system. Simple is best: On hearing the alarm leave the building. (sack anyone that doesn't) All other measures are unnecessary and don't work. Please let this open up a debate on the subject, I would love to be enlightened. Paul

Posted By Paul Huber That is my point exactly. Can you be 100% certain that the information you collect from fire wardens is correct? Is your building really empty and are you sure. If not then the best you can do is guess. No body could have planned for the events of last Tuesday, however I know there were a number of fundamental mistakes made in the evacuation of those buildings because of confusion over what to do. (I have several hundred colleagues who worked in the South Tower). Emergency plans should be able to deal with the worse case scenario or at least the worst probable event. When dealing with fire this means total loss of the property. Don't fall into the trap of developing your procedures to deal with fire drills and false alarms, they are of little importance. Practice for a real fire where you have a few minutes from alarm (if it is sounded) to serious fire. Often in real fires alarms are not activated due to a panic response. What is important is that people leave the building and get to a place of safety as quickly as possible. It does not really matter if they then go home as long as they are out. I have worked in several large offices that have all used fire wardens. Apart from the nightmare of trying to maintain coverage for all areas I have never evacuated a building and got all the reports and information in less than 10 to 15 minutes. Seven minutes after one alarm the building was completely ablaze. My point is that you haven't got time for all this sophistication. In that event all we could tell the fire fighters was that we thought everyone was out (fortunately they were).

Posted By Tim Davies Guys, I'm a freelance trainer visiting many varied orgs, the majority have access control, security, and some wonderful expensive systems that are technically superb. About 70 to 90% of the time I can get in without signing or clocking in, this is no big secret. Whatever you come up with for goodness sake train effectively for it and strictly enforce it. And keep it simple for those having to think in times of real emergency. Tim